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Old 12-02-2009, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,394,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Gideon said
You miss quote me again; the end of the world is as I have stated many times, the end of this age. The end of the age brings severe judgement to the wicked, while an eternal reign with Christ for the saints. It brings damnation to the wicked kings of the earth. This all occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation when the last or seventh trumpet sounds. I can not understand why you have such a hard time comprehending it. It is in plain English, literally. The end also brings the Battle of Armegeddon, Megiddo in the Valley of Jehosophat. You seem to think the end came 2000 years ago, yet you can not understand that was just a miny tribulation period; it by no means is the Great Tribulaiton, soon to come. In summary, things are worse now than they were in Bible times. Just give it time to get to America, as it will. Then you will think the GT is upon you. If you feel threatened by the Bible that is your problem not mine. I feel secure in its promises and prophecies, as I believe it is infallable and God's inspired word. So what if they kill me as a Christian martyr; God bless me then. I do not feel threatened by that, obviously you do. Don't blame me for your obvious lack of understanding in the scriptures; Pray for God to give you understanding and maybe he will. Of one thing I will assure you, the GT will come, martyrs will die, the antichrist will have a horrible reign for 3.5 years (the worst persecution and tribulation ever seen), Jesus will come bodily in His shekinah, great glory and power at the end of those 3.5 years, the saints will raise from the dead, the millenial kingdom will begin here on Earth, etc etc. Do you still not get this?
Here is what you said in your post:
Quote:
So since the end of the world has not occurred, neither has Jesus returned. The trumpet has been sounded loud and if you refuse to here it, this is on you not us.
You said:"This is on you..." What is on me?

What is it that you want me to be afraid of that is "on me?"

See it is a fearful doctrine that has the bottom line: Follow us or you will be tortured in a Great Tribulation. God will strike you down unless you are like us.

How is that accomplishing glory to God? Do you really suppose that God punishes people because he is angry?

My God punishes people for their benefit because he loves them, like a father to a child. So unless the ending of the story has less people struck down by God.. then I cannot fathom it.
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Old 12-03-2009, 07:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Here is what you said in your post:


You said:"This is on you..." What is on me?

What is it that you want me to be afraid of that is "on me?"

See it is a fearful doctrine that has the bottom line: Follow us or you will be tortured in a Great Tribulation. God will strike you down unless you are like us.

How is that accomplishing glory to God? Do you really suppose that God punishes people because he is angry?

My God punishes people for their benefit because he loves them, like a father to a child. So unless the ending of the story has less people struck down by God.. then I cannot fathom it.

Gideon said what is on you is that you claim the Day of the Lord has come, and the tribulation has long passed. Let me remind you what Paul said, " I won't bother posting to many of the interpretations of this passage, but if you would like to find it, go to The Blessed Hope of the Believers. So once again, if you feel threatened by scripture, that is on you not us. We have sounded the trumpet of scriptural truth, and if you refuse to hear it, that is on you. Those that do not love the truth but delight in error are subject to God's strong delusion He will most definately send as the Great tribulation starts. Taking God's word serious is very serious business, especially in the day and age we live in. Remember the Great Tribulation has not occcured nor has Jesus returned as you claim he did.

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Common sense should tell us Jesus has not come, as we have not gathered together to him, nor have we raptured, nor has Satan been destroyed by the brightness of his coming..

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Don't be troubled by something you think Paul or anyone else has said or wrote they did not. The Day of Christ has not come but is still at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The apostacy must occur and Satan must be revealed first.

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We will even see him sit in the temple of God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Christ comes after all of Satan's evil works or deception in them that will perish.

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
They will not receive the truth that they might be saved
.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Since they refuse to receive the written truth, God sends them strong delusion, so strong they will believe a lie; the lie is that Satan is Christ or God. They shall all be damned for having pleasure in unrighteousness or error. I hope you find this helpful; if you want more detail, go to TBHOTB thread as I stated earlier.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-03-2009 at 08:00 AM..
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,394,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Gideon said what is on you is that you claim the Day of the Lord has come, and the tribulation has long passed. Let me remind you what Paul said, " I won't bother posting to many of the interpretations of this passage, but if you would like to find it, go to The Blessed Hope of the Believers. So once again, if you feel threatened by scripture, that is on you not us. We have sounded the trumpet of scriptural truth, and if you refuse to hear it, that is on you. Those that do not love the truth but delight in error are subject to God's strong delusion He will most definately send as the Great tribulation starts. Taking God's word serious is very serious business, especially in the day and age we live in. Remember the Great Tribulation has not occcured nor has Jesus returned as you claim he did.
I have no fear of scripture. and it is clear that the disciples generation was the same generation that Jesus returned to. You ignore the text that states "this generation"; "soon"; "quickly"...etc.

Quote:
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Common sense should tell us Jesus has not come, as we have not gathered together to him, nor have we raptured, nor has Satan been destroyed by the brightness of his coming..
It is also the confirmation of salvation that is brought when Christ returns... so you still hope for salvation as the apostles did?

Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness

Quote:
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Don't be troubled by something you think Paul or anyone else has said or wrote they did not. The Day of Christ has not come but is still at hand.
2000 years later the day is near, and at hand still? I think not.

Quote:
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The apostacy must occur and Satan must be revealed first.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Quote:
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We will even see him sit in the temple of God.
Acts 12:21-24 On the appointed day Herod, wearing his royal robes, sat on his throne and delivered a public address to the people.They shouted, "This is the voice of a god, not of a man." Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died. But the word of God continued to increase and spread.

The time you think is right is now? Yet everything in the NT points to the generations of the disciple who were told by Jesus that the time was soon to them... How and Why do you ignore that?


Quote:
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Christ comes after all of Satan's evil works or deception in them that will perish.
Check out the woes to the pharisees.. That is what needed to be brought down...
Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matt 23:34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

Jer. 23:1 "Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!" declares the LORD.

Quote:
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
They will not receive the truth that they might be saved
.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Since they refuse to receive the written truth, God sends them strong delusion, so strong they will believe a lie; the lie is that Satan is Christ or God. They shall all be damned for having pleasure in unrighteousness or error. I hope you find this helpful; if you want more detail, go to TBHOTB thread as I stated earlier.
"They" are a specific people who lived when the apostles ministered.. how can you not see that? Why do you apply the bible literrally to your generation when it is that first century generation that is being spoken to? What other literary work do you think was written 2000 years ago that applies to you? These were letters written and addressed to specific people yet you ignore that and apply it to you.. interesting.
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Old 12-03-2009, 02:12 PM
 
392 posts, read 469,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I have no fear of scripture. and it is clear that the disciples generation was the same generation that Jesus returned to. You ignore the text that states "this generation"; "soon"; "quickly"...etc.



It is also the confirmation of salvation that is brought when Christ returns... so you still hope for salvation as the apostles did?

Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness

2000 years later the day is near, and at hand still? I think not.


John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


Acts 12:21-24 On the appointed day Herod, wearing his royal robes, sat on his throne and delivered a public address to the people.They shouted, "This is the voice of a god, not of a man." Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died. But the word of God continued to increase and spread.

The time you think is right is now? Yet everything in the NT points to the generations of the disciple who were told by Jesus that the time was soon to them... How and Why do you ignore that?


Check out the woes to the pharisees.. That is what needed to be brought down...
Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matt 23:34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

Jer. 23:1 "Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!" declares the LORD.



"They" are a specific people who lived when the apostles ministered.. how can you not see that? Why do you apply the bible literrally to your generation when it is that first century generation that is being spoken to? What other literary work do you think was written 2000 years ago that applies to you? These were letters written and addressed to specific people yet you ignore that and apply it to you.. interesting.
Gideon said,

Your thinking, logic, reasoning, and interpretation are warped. You ignore the fact that Jesus said, learn a parable; the parable is the rebirth of Israel as a nation, the fig tree marks the beginning of the final generation that would not pass. You ignore the fact that the disciples asked when the end would come and his return, meaning the two are in synchronicity. So in essence you are stating,Modern Babylon (America) has been destroyed), the sky has darkened, Jesus has returned, judged the wicked, established his millennial reign (1000 years of reign), resurrected the dead saints from all the ages (from Adam to the last martyr), and that he is ruling from Israel for not just 1000 years as prophecied, but 2000 years. I would certainly know why he is not here, and also why he made an error with the 2000 years instead of one. Your logic is corrupted. Very obviously, Jesus was born of a virgin, died on the cross, rose again the third day, and ascended to heaven. Currently he sits at the right hand of the Father. He is yet to come and reign for 1000 years. He has not returned, but rather many signs shall signify his return. When he returns, it will mark the end of Satan's reign on earth.

Your reaoning is so corrupted and misconstrued, that I won't even waist time answering your post's. Just remember, Paul warns of the dangers in having pleasure in error or unrighteousness with regards to the timing of the Lord's return.



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Old 12-03-2009, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Gideon said,

Your thinking, logic, reasoning, and interpretation are warped. You ignore the fact that Jesus said, learn a parable; the parable is the rebirth of Israel as a nation, the fig tree marks the beginning of the final generation that would not pass. You ignore the fact that the disciples asked when the end would come and his return, meaning the two are in synchronicity. So in essence you are stating,Modern Babylon (America) has been destroyed), the sky has darkened, Jesus has returned, judged the wicked, established his millennial reign (1000 years of reign), resurrected the dead saints from all the ages (from Adam to the last martyr), and that he is ruling from Israel for not just 1000 years as prophecied, but 2000 years. I would certainly know why he is not here, and also why he made an error with the 2000 years instead of one. Your logic is corrupted. Very obviously, Jesus was born of a virgin, died on the cross, rose again the third day, and ascended to heaven. Currently he sits at the right hand of the Father. He is yet to come and reign for 1000 years. He has not returned, but rather many signs shall signify his return. When he returns, it will mark the end of Satan's reign on earth.

Your reaoning is so corrupted and misconstrued, that I won't even waist time answering your post's. Just remember, Paul warns of the dangers in having pleasure in error or unrighteousness with regards to the timing of the Lord's return.


Well when you put it that way... perhaps you are right. All these writers were aware that their works would be collected, preserved, and then right where it needed to be when the "end" came so people would be prepared.

They disregarded what they were told by Jesus because it didn't really pertain to them. They weren't really persecuted and killed.

Mark 1:14-15 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

You are right. I will never understand your logic.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:32 AM
 
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People must learn to take the scriptures in context of what they actually mean. We must realized that the Bible does not mean what we think it should mean or what we want it to say. The Bible is the Word of God and is quick, living. Jesus is the word. Though he be not present, bodily, he is with us in His word. God has presereved his word for all generations in order to prepare us for the trials and tribulations that apply to each generation in their times.

The saints of the early church were persecuted and killed as modern age saints will be also.The Great Tribulation, which has not arrived will bring far worse persecution to the last generation, than any has witnessed or experienced.

When Jesus said the kingdom of heaven was at hand, we know he meant it was within us. We are currently the kingdom of heaven as born again believers. The manifestation of this kingdom will become appparent when the millenial reign occurs and we become immoratalized. For such Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is at hand, repent and believe so you can be part of it. We as believers are already a part of it, for it is within us.

When the fulness of the time of apostacy comes or when sinners are brought to their full, then will appear the false Christ for 3.5 years before Jesus returns to reign. Satan will do his evil works for 3.5 years before Jesus appears to judge the world and establish his kingdom which is already within us.
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Old 12-04-2009, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
People must learn to take the scriptures in context of what they actually mean. We must realized that the Bible does not mean what we think it should mean or what we want it to say. The Bible is the Word of God and is quick, living. Jesus is the word. Though he be not present, bodily, he is with us in His word. God has presereved his word for all generations in order to prepare us for the trials and tribulations that apply to each generation in their times.

The saints of the early church were persecuted and killed as modern age saints will be also.The Great Tribulation, which has not arrived will bring far worse persecution to the last generation, than any has witnessed or experienced.

When Jesus said the kingdom of heaven was at hand, we know he meant it was within us. We are currently the kingdom of heaven as born again believers. The manifestation of this kingdom will become appparent when the millenial reign occurs and we become immoratalized. For such Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is at hand, repent and believe so you can be part of it. We as believers are already a part of it, for it is within us.

When the fulness of the time of apostacy comes or when sinners are brought to their full, then will appear the false Christ for 3.5 years before Jesus returns to reign. Satan will do his evil works for 3.5 years before Jesus appears to judge the world and establish his kingdom which is already within us.
I guess you are so set in your doctrine that you just can't see my point... I say there is one fullness of times (Gal. 4:4)... You say there are 2... interesting... where in the bible does it state 2 fullness of times?
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Old 12-05-2009, 01:59 AM
 
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In second Thessalonians and Daniel, we see sinners coming to their full. This is one single event; though I have been falsely accused of saying there are two. When sinners come to their full or when the apostasy is complete, a man of fierce countenance shall be revealed, the antichrist.

We also see in II Thessalonians many other things, including and not limited to Paul warning of the dangers concerning having a false expectation with the incorrect timing of the Lord's return. Paul warns those that have pleasure in unrighteousness or as translated, pleasure in error concerning the timing of the Lord's return, these whom receive not the love of the truth concerning the timing will see God's damnation. This is the reason Paul gives us the details concerning the second coming so we are not caught in the lies and errors of the world. The time is at hand; Jesus has not returned and left anybody behind.

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Gideon said,
We will start off with these three verses. Paul begs and admonishes the church to not let any word, spirit, or letter that may have seemed to come from him distract them from the true timing of the rapture or gathering of the saints unto Jesus. The soon shaken in mind carries the meaning of do not let any cause you to think that it has occurred already, but rather the day is at hand. Apparently someone or something had convinced them that Jesus had come and left them behind. Paul is saying don't worry, the day is still at hand and Jesus did not come and leave you behind. Paul elaborates even more, as he tells them to let no man deceive you. For that day of Christ return for us, and our gathering together unto him will not come until: first, there is an apostasy or falling away from truth, secondly, the antichrist is revealed. Now I want to stop and take a look at an Old Testament verse that is identical in meaning to this one; and it tells us exactly the same thing.


3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Daniel 8:23 23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full (the falling away or apostasy), a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up (the antichrist is revealed).

Paul's prophecy is exactly as Daniel's vision. They are identical. What they say is when the sinners are come to their full or when there is a great apostasy or falling away from truth, that is when the man of fierce countenance will be revealed. The falling away from truth is what causes the antichrist to be revealed or come out of the midst is how it translates. So in essence the apostasy is what causes Satan to be revealed. This falling away from truth opens the flood gates for demonic domination and possession on earth. When this occurs, the man of fierce countenance, understanding dark sentences shall arise to bring great wrath to the earth. The word falling away comes from the Greek word, apostacia or it means to fall away from traditional or absolute truth.

Now this pre-tribulation rapture is the main emphasis here; further it is the traditional or absolute untruth the church has fallen away to. In essence, they are apostate, at least in this fashion; some are apostate in many other areas. Just how far this apostasy must go before God says, that is enough is beyond me. I have not figured that one out yet. In today's churches and society, we see a falling away from truth; this apostasy will eventually bring the revelation of the antichrist. Though the main emphasis of the apostasy described is the falling away from truth with regards to the timing of the Lord’s second coming. We will see that clearly as we go on.

In summary, what we have discovered so far is that the second coming of Christ, the same one described in I Thes 4 and our gathering together unto him (the our are the dead and the living saints raptured) will not occur until there is an apostasy, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. He most likely will come out from a church, as a right wing conservative. For we are told, the antichrists come out from among us, so their works might be made manifest unto man. We also see that he comes out from the midst of; it most likely means from our midst or from the church. Take into consideration that they bring in damnable heresies and present themselves as angels of light also. Satan will not come as a bad man, but rather as one portraying himself to be good in order to deceive many. Finally, the rapture we can see so far does not occur until after Satan is revealed; hence this already debunks a pretribulational, secret rapture of the church. Let's continue on/the secret part will soon be disproven.


Gideon said, Precisely,the word first means first in verse three or to come preceeding what is next. Paul is simply telling us that there must first be, a falling away or a rebellion as you have correctly stated, before the arrival or Parousia of our Lord or his arrival or Second Advent, second coming. The falling away is as seen in Daniel and here as explained earlier. This is the exact same scene we see in I Thes 4, our gathering together unto him; it does not occur until first the apostasy occurs, and finally until the man of sin is revealed. These two things must occur as others things must transpire and we will see that as we go on. Paul elaborates on the timing here because the church thought Jesus had come and left them behind; That is evident in II Thes 2. This timing is not presented at all in I Thes 4, btw, which pre-tribers claim it is. Nowhere do we see in I Thes 4 any timing presented, at all. We just see specific details of how the event will unfold and not when it will unfold. Some may remember that I said God gave us different accounts of the same event to give us specific detail from different personalities and passages, etc, to give us a big picture of one event.. Yet, pre-tribers, falsely claim their pre-tribulation rapture is there in I Thes 4. Read it, God only addresses the concern The Church of Corinth had for their dead loved ones in I Thes 4; there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation presentation in I Thes 4; nothing is mentioned concerning the timing. As well there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture in II Thes 2. So Jesus’ arrival is most certainly a post tribulation one, or it comes after the workings of Satan, not before as pre-tribulationists falsely claim. Paul makes that so clear here, even up to verse three, as you stated. We will see even more so, he could not have made it any clearer. Darby most certainly was the father of this Pre-tribulation heresy as was Scofield.

Believing this folly places man in a very precarious situation as we will see with the rest of the chapter.


Ok, now we will cover verses 4, 5,6,7,8, and 9 and see what they say. Verse # 4 is somewhat explanatory; what many fail to realize is that when Satan makes his appearance, he comes in peaceably and presents himself as an angel of light. So he will not come in with a pitch fork and horns. He will come as a lamb in order to deceive many. He will come in as a man of "fierce" contenance or in a calmly, peacable appearance. As some people will be deceived, they will worship him thinking he is God, but he is not. Lucifer places himself in the rebuilt temple and makes claims that he is God and shows himself to be God. He will oppose any other claims to Christ's return, person, or any others that worship Jesus in expectation of his second advent. Many will think he is God; primarily those whom God has sent strong delusion to will be deceived.

Apparently Paul had told them many things besides what is recorded in this chapter. As mentioned before, God gave us different references from different personalities and books to demonstrate the immense detail in this single event. We have already covered the Parousia or his arrival. The arrival or Parousia is seen in verse 8 where it says, "brightness of his coming", (Parousia) or coming. We will see that not only is his Parousia mentioned in this chapter, but his epiphany, apentisis, and apokolypcia are also. The fact that all four references or words are present in II Thes 2 and I Thes 4 makes pre-tribulationism an impossible doctrine; hence it is heresy. For instance, Pre-tribulationist claim the Parousia is the pre-tribulation rapture and the apokolypcia is second part of the second coming, at the end of the tribulation. Yet this chapter makes all three events, minus the epentisis, transpire simultaneously, at the end of the great tribulation. There is no split in the two. Further, just because Paul does not mention the Revelation or apockolypcia in I Thes 4 does not mean it is not present. They are still very obviously the same event. To say they are not holds absolutely no proof. There is much detail to prove this, and we will cover most of it as we go on.. So the second coming of Christ demands a post-tribulation second coming, which must be one event, in which the Parousia, Apokolypcia, Epiphany and apentesis occur simultaneously; they are not two separate events. There confusion is brought on by Darby's heresy and his refusal to see scripture as it is; and secondly they are confused because they have a difficult time seeing the different references make up to one single event. Do not worry about these words; Lord willing you will understand the meanings when we are done.


We can proceed to verse number 6 now. We notice the that Paul says, now we know what withholdeth. What did Paul just tell us? He said the apostasy is what causes the man of sin to be revealed, so now we know what withholdeth. Next, Daniel also told us that when sinners come to their full (apostacy or falling away) a man of fierce contenance (antichrist or son of peridition) would be revealed. As pre-tribers falsely claim, "the what is a person", the Holy Spirit, we certainly see it is not. The what is a condition or apostasy state, not a person. Paul tells us, now that we know what withholdeth. The apostasy not being to its full withholds the He or the antichrist. So the he in this verse neither is the Holy Spirit it is the antichrist. This makes perfect sense as it reasons with the balance of the chapter. Further, how could any be saved during the Great Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is gone, impossible. The Spirit of truth must be here to save more people than will ever be saved during the Great Tribulation. This is a bombshell for the pre-tribulation falasy.have itching ears and want them to be tickled.




Verse seven is even more of a bombshell. Paul has set the context of this restraining element in the previous verses, now he takes it down to the individual level in verse seven. He tells us the mystery of apostasy is already at work. He that letteth is the antichrist; he will let himself from being revealed until his comes to his full of sin or apostasy, then he will be taken out of our midst. So apparently he is somewhere in the church.

Verse 8 says, then will the antichrist be revealed, when he has come to his full with sin or apostasy. Take note that Jesus will destroy him when he returns for us, as this is what II Thes 2 is about, Jesus coming for us. Further he will destroy him with the spirit of his mouth and the brightness of his coming or Parousia. This clearly tells us Jesus is coming after the apostasy and after Satan is revealed because of the apostasy. In conclusion thus far, there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture.

Verse nine elaborates even more so on the timing of Christ's return. Verse nine tells us that that Jesus' coming will not occur until Satan's workings have been completed and past. Even him (Jesus) who's coming (Jesus' coming) is after the workings of Satan. Take further note that he is able to deceive them that are going to perish or the ones not trusting in Christ "or those whom have pleasure in error with the timing of the LORD's return", as we will see next. This is the truth; pre-tribulationism is a lie. There can only be one truth.



Quote:
17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.







4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Now we will cover the remainder of the chapter, up to verse 14. Some may want to read this in order to familiarize themselves with the content. The remaining in the content is related directly to this chapter and it wraps up the meaning more precisely. As Previously stated it depicts a serious consequence for not adnering to the meaning. As we discussed the chapter 2 of II Thessalonians is directly instructing us of the timing; the instruction demonstrates and proves a post-tribulation one, while at the same time it warns of the dangers of believing a lie, as directly related to the pre-tribulation view. The words pleasure in unrighteousness means they had pleasure in error; in this case error with regards to the second coming's timing. We will see this very clearly in the final verses. I am not using fear tactics but merely pointing to what Paul has told us and warned us about. I Thes 4 will even make this make more sense. Yet, the pre-tribulationists claim there is a pre-tribulation rapture there, but it clearly is not. One must fantasize it being there or have a wishful thinking heart and mentality to place the coming before the tribulation and not after.


Thus far we have only covered one word or terminology. Soon, Lord willing, we will cover the remainder of the terminology; the other 3 words will make the meanings pop out even more. Two more of these Greek words of importance are in II Thes 2, but the last one we will see is in I Thes 4. This one as does Parousia, bridges the two books together proving them to be one single event, and not two that are split up by seven years, as the pre-trib camp falsely claims. Even without splitting the words, we see in plain common English it is one event.


10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Gideon said,
Verse ten really says with all deceivableness of error in them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth or they were offended by the truth with regards to the timing and preferred to accept error. Perhaps they are offended because they are comfortable in the Babylonian life of America. They cannot imagine what it would be like to suffer like Paul or be crucified like Jesus. They erroneous expect Jesus to fly them away from the pain that will come upon the saints during the tribulation. God will place these in error that they desired; oh they will escape tribulation alright, but will be sent strong delusion. Further damnation will be the end result. The truth is the only thing that could have saved them, but they refused it.

Paul tells us further, that God will send them, certain unsaved persons, that thought they were Christians, strong delusion, so they would believe a lie. What is the lie? The lie we see in this chapter is that Satan is God. It seems evident, that since certain, non believing people, professing to be saints refuse to believe the truth; God will send them strong delusion, so that they believe a lie. The lie we see is Satan will claim to be Christ and desire to be worshiped as such. I am not saying that all pre-tribulationists are unsaved; however the ones that are not, and love continuing in this error will most certainly receive God's strong delusion should they continue in that error up until the time of delusion comes.

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
This verse of scripture is an enigma to many so called Christians. They cannot believe that God would send a delusion to deceive many claiming to be His own called out followers. But that is the truth. These are the plain words of scripture. God will sort of separate the sheep from the goats. When the going gets tough and rough, the goats will stop going; they will suffer strong delusion sent by God. They will have their pre-tribulation messiah, but it will not be Jesus, but rather the antichrist.

Verse 12 is somewhat of a repeat and further elaborates on the consequence of the error they will love and follow. The end result for their rebellion is damnation. Recognizing this timing as Paul describes is very important, as it carries deadly consequence for rejecting and being unable to see the truth of it. The truth can only be revealed to the true saints having the Spirit to bear witness.

Paul tells the church in verse 13 not to worry, as God has chosen us to Salvation from the beginning. God knows who will be saved and who will not be. Going to church, tithing, and doing good deeds does not save one. Being a missionary or doing good works does not save a person. We see many shall come up to God during the GWT Judgement, and shall say, 'Lord, Lord have we not done many works, and cast out devils, etc." We know what Jesus tells them, "Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and all his fallen angels." A good indicator to see if one truly has salvation during the end times will be if one has love for God's truths or if they care to listen to them with regards to the second coming.. Paul tells us that since we have been sanctified by the Spirit, we will receive the truth, the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit and He shall guide us in all truth. The ones being deceived were never sanctified and therefore cannot receive the truth, but rather they receive God's strong delusion. They will believe Satan's lies. If one rejects the truth concerning the second coming vehemently, chances are they may not be saved.

God has called the saints by the Gospel and has predestined them to glorification through Jesus Christ our Lord. We shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. We are glorified when we either rise from the dead or when we are translated from a living human state to an immortal body; this will occur for the church during the rapture, at the end of the Great Tribulation. This will occur as Paul tells us, and John also in Revelation 11.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The last trumpet sounds and the rapture occurs. Christ now possesses the kingdoms of Earth and begins his reign as King of Kings. The saints rise as it is the time of the dead; it is time for them to rise to receive their rewards. God's wrath will now be poured out upon the kings of the earth, as seen in Revelation 19, 20. The kings become angry because they know the wrath is coming; they also know their kingship is over.



16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-05-2009 at 02:26 AM..
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Old 12-05-2009, 02:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
In second Thessalonians and Daniel, we see sinners coming to their full. This is one single event; though I have been falsely accused of saying there are two. When sinners come to their full or when the apostasy is complete, a man of fierce countenance shall be revealed, the antichrist.

We also see in II Thessalonians many other things, including and not limited to Paul warning of the dangers concerning having a false expectation with the incorrect timing of the Lord's return. Paul warns those that have pleasure in unrighteousness or as translated, pleasure in error concerning the timing of the Lord's return that these whom receive not the love of the truth will see God's damnation. This is the reason Paul gives us the details concerning the second coming so we are not caught in the lies and errors of the world. The time is at hand; Jesus has not returned and left anybody behind.

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Gideon said,
We will start off with these three verses. Paul begs and admonishes the church to not let any word, spirit, or letter that may have seemed to come from him distract them from the true timing of the rapture or gathering of the saints unto Jesus. The soon shaken in mind carries the meaning of do not let any cause you to think that it has occurred already, but rather the day is at hand. Apparently someone or something had convinced them that Jesus had come and left them behind. Paul is saying don't worry, the day is still at hand and Jesus did not come and leave you behind. Paul elaborates even more, as he tells them to let no man deceive you. For that day of Christ return for us, and our gathering together unto him will not come until: first, there is an apostasy or falling away from truth, secondly, the antichrist is revealed. Now I want to stop and take a look at an Old Testament verse that is identical in meaning to this one; and it tells us exactly the same thing.


3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Daniel 8:23 23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full (the falling away or apostasy), a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up (the antichrist is revealed).

Paul's prophecy is exactly as Daniel's vision. They are identical. What they say is when the sinners are come to their full or when there is a great apostasy or falling away from truth, that is when the man of fierce countenance will be revealed. The falling away from truth is what causes the antichrist to be revealed or come out of the midst is how it translates. So in essence the apostasy is what causes Satan to be revealed. This falling away from truth opens the flood gates for demonic domination and possession on earth. When this occurs, the man of fierce countenance, understanding dark sentences shall arise to bring great wrath to the earth. The word falling away comes from the Greek word, apostacia or it means to fall away from traditional or absolute truth.

Now this pre-tribulation rapture is the main emphasis here; further it is the traditional or absolute untruth the church has fallen away to. In essence, they are apostate, at least in this fashion; some are apostate in many other areas. Just how far this apostasy must go before God says, that is enough is beyond me. I have not figured that one out yet. In today's churches and society, we see a falling away from truth; this apostasy will eventually bring the revelation of the antichrist. Though the main emphasis of the apostasy described is the falling away from truth with regards to the timing of the Lord’s second coming. We will see that clearly as we go on.

In summary, what we have discovered so far is that the second coming of Christ, the same one described in I Thes 4 and our gathering together unto him (the our are the dead and the living saints raptured) will not occur until there is an apostasy, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. He most likely will come out from a church, as a right wing conservative. For we are told, the antichrists come out from among us, so their works might be made manifest unto man. We also see that he comes out from the midst of; it most likely means from our midst or from the church. Take into consideration that they bring in damnable heresies and present themselves as angels of light also. Satan will not come as a bad man, but rather as one portraying himself to be good in order to deceive many. Finally, the rapture we can see so far does not occur until after Satan is revealed; hence this already debunks a pretribulational, secret rapture of the church. Let's continue on/the secret part will soon be disproven.


Gideon said, Precisely,the word first means first in verse three or to come preceeding what is next. Paul is simply telling us that there must first be, a falling away or a rebellion as you have correctly stated, before the arrival or Parousia of our Lord or his arrival or Second Advent, second coming. The falling away is as seen in Daniel and here as explained earlier. This is the exact same scene we see in I Thes 4, our gathering together unto him; it does not occur until first the apostasy occurs, and finally until the man of sin is revealed. These two things must occur as others things must transpire and we will see that as we go on. Paul elaborates on the timing here because the church thought Jesus had come and left them behind; That is evident in II Thes 2. This timing is not presented at all in I Thes 4, btw, which pre-tribers claim it is. Nowhere do we see in I Thes 4 any timing presented, at all. We just see specific details of how the event will unfold and not when it will unfold. Some may remember that I said God gave us different accounts of the same event to give us specific detail from different personalities and passages, etc, to give us a big picture of one event.. Yet, pre-tribers, falsely claim their pre-tribulation rapture is there in I Thes 4. Read it, God only addresses the concern The Church of Corinth had for their dead loved ones in I Thes 4; there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation presentation in I Thes 4; nothing is mentioned concerning the timing. As well there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture in II Thes 2. So Jesus’ arrival is most certainly a post tribulation one, or it comes after the workings of Satan, not before as pre-tribulationists falsely claim. Paul makes that so clear here, even up to verse three, as you stated. We will see even more so, he could not have made it any clearer. Darby most certainly was the father of this Pre-tribulation heresy as was Scofield.

Believing this folly places man in a very precarious situation as we will see with the rest of the chapter.


Ok, now we will cover verses 4, 5,6,7,8, and 9 and see what they say. Verse # 4 is somewhat explanatory; what many fail to realize is that when Satan makes his appearance, he comes in peaceably and presents himself as an angel of light. So he will not come in with a pitch fork and horns. He will come as a lamb in order to deceive many. He will come in as a man of "fierce" contenance or in a calmly, peacable appearance. As some people will be deceived, they will worship him thinking he is God, but he is not. Lucifer places himself in the rebuilt temple and makes claims that he is God and shows himself to be God. He will oppose any other claims to Christ's return, person, or any others that worship Jesus in expectation of his second advent. Many will think he is God; primarily those whom God has sent strong delusion to will be deceived.

Apparently Paul had told them many things besides what is recorded in this chapter. As mentioned before, God gave us different references from different personalities and books to demonstrate the immense detail in this single event. We have already covered the Parousia or his arrival. The arrival or Parousia is seen in verse 8 where it says, "brightness of his coming", (Parousia) or coming. We will see that not only is his Parousia mentioned in this chapter, but his epiphany, apentisis, and apokolypcia are also. The fact that all four references or words are present in II Thes 2 and I Thes 4 makes pre-tribulationism an impossible doctrine; hence it is heresy. For instance, Pre-tribulationist claim the Parousia is the pre-tribulation rapture and the apokolypcia is second part of the second coming, at the end of the tribulation. Yet this chapter makes all three events, minus the epentisis, transpire simultaneously, at the end of the great tribulation. There is no split in the two. Further, just because Paul does not mention the Revelation or apockolypcia in I Thes 4 does not mean it is not present. They are still very obviously the same event. To say they are not holds absolutely no proof. There is much detail to prove this, and we will cover most of it as we go on.. So the second coming of Christ demands a post-tribulation second coming, which must be one event, in which the Parousia, Apokolypcia, Epiphany and apentesis occur simultaneously; they are not two separate events. There confusion is brought on by Darby's heresy and his refusal to see scripture as it is; and secondly they are confused because they have a difficult time seeing the different references make up to one single event. Do not worry about these words; Lord willing you will understand the meanings when we are done.


We can proceed to verse number 6 now. We notice the that Paul says, now we know what withholdeth. What did Paul just tell us? He said the apostasy is what causes the man of sin to be revealed, so now we know what withholdeth. Next, Daniel also told us that when sinners come to their full (apostacy or falling away) a man of fierce contenance (antichrist or son of peridition) would be revealed. As pre-tribers falsely claim, "the what is a person", the Holy Spirit, we certainly see it is not. The what is a condition or apostasy state, not a person. Paul tells us, now that we know what withholdeth. The apostasy not being to its full withholds the He or the antichrist. So the he in this verse neither is the Holy Spirit it is the antichrist. This makes perfect sense as it reasons with the balance of the chapter. Further, how could any be saved during the Great Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is gone, impossible. The Spirit of truth must be here to save more people than will ever be saved during the Great Tribulation. This is a bombshell for the pre-tribulation falasy.have itching ears and want them to be tickled.




Verse seven is even more of a bombshell. Paul has set the context of this restraining element in the previous verses, now he takes it down to the individual level in verse seven. He tells us the mystery of apostasy is already at work. He that letteth is the antichrist; he will let himself from being revealed until his comes to his full of sin or apostasy, then he will be taken out of our midst. So apparently he is somewhere in the church.

Verse 8 says, then will the antichrist be revealed, when he has come to his full with sin or apostasy. Take note that Jesus will destroy him when he returns for us, as this is what II Thes 2 is about, Jesus coming for us. Further he will destroy him with the spirit of his mouth and the brightness of his coming or Parousia. This clearly tells us Jesus is coming after the apostasy and after Satan is revealed because of the apostasy. In conclusion thus far, there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture.

We can proceed to verse number 6 now. We notice that Paul says; now we know what withholdeth. What did Paul just tell us? He said the apostasy is what causes the man of sin to be revealed. Next, Daniel also told us that when sinners come to their full (apostasy or falling away) a man of fierce countenance (antichrist or son of perdition) would be revealed. As pre-tribers falsely claim the “what” is a person, the Holy Spirit, we certainly see it is not. “The” is a condition or apostasy not a person. Paul tells us, now that we know what withholdeth. The apostasy not being to its full withholds the He or the antichrist. So the “he” in this verse is not the Holy Spirit; it is the antichrist. This makes perfect sense as it reasons with the balance of the chapter. Further, how could any get saved during the Great Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is gone, impossible? The Spirit of truth must be here to save more people than will ever be saved during the Great Tribulation. This is a bombshell for the pre-tribulation fallacy.

Verse seven is even more of a bombshell. Paul has set the context of this restraining element in the previous verses, now he takes it down to the individual level in verse seven. He tells us the mystery of apostasy is already at work. He that letteth is the antichrist; he will let himself from being revealed until his comes to his full of sin or apostasy, then he will be taken out of our midst. So apparently he is somewhere in the church.

Verse 8 says, then will the antichrist be revealed, when he has come to his full with sin or apostasy. Take note that Jesus will destroy him when he returns for us, as this is what II Thes 2 is about, Jesus coming for us. Further he will destroy him with the spirit of his mouth and the brightness of his coming or Parousia. This clearly tells us Jesus is coming after the apostasy and after Satan is revealed because of the apostasy.

Verse nine elaborates even more so on the timing of Christ's return. Verse nine tells us that that Jesus' coming will not occur until Satan's workings. Even him (Jesus) who's coming (Jesus' coming) is after the workings of Satan. Take further note that he is able to deceive them that are going to perish or the ones not trusting in Christ "or his return", as we will see next. This is the truth; pre-tribulationism is a lie. There can only be one truth.


Quote:
17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.









4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Now we will cover the remainder of the chapter, up to verse 14. Some may want to read this in order to familiarize themselves with the content. The remaining in the content is related directly to this chapter and it wraps up the meaning more precisely. As Previously stated it depicts a serious consequence for not adnering to the meaning. As we discussed the chapter 2 of II Thessalonians is directly instructing us of the timing; the instruction demonstrates and proves a post-tribulation one, while at the same time it warns of the dangers of believing a lie, as directly related to the pre-tribulation view. The words pleasure in unrighteousness means they had pleasure in error; in this case error with regards to the second coming's timing. We will see this very clearly in the final verses. I am not using fear tactics but merely pointing to what Paul has told us and warned us about. I Thes 4 will even make this make more sense. Yet, the pre-tribulationists claim there is a pre-tribulation rapture there, but it clearly is not. One must fantasize it being there or have a wishful thinking heart and mentality to place the coming before the tribulation and not after.


Thus far we have only covered one word or terminology. Soon, Lord willing, we will cover the remainder of the terminology; the other 3 words will make the meanings pop out even more. Two more of these Greek words of importance are in II Thes 2, but the last one we will see is in I Thes 4. This one as does Parousia, bridges the two books together proving them to be one single event, and not two that are split up by seven years, as the pre-trib camp falsely claims.


10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love ofthe truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved ofthe Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification ofthe Spirit and belief ofthe truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining ofthe glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[CENTER][CENTER][/CENTER][/CENTER]


Gideon said,
Verse ten really says with all deceivableness of error in them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth or they were offended by the truth with regards to the timing and preferred to accept error. Perhaps they are offended because they are comfortable in the Babylonian life of America. They cannot imagine what it would be like to suffer like Paul or be crucified like Jesus. They erroneous expect Jesus to fly them away from the pain that will come upon the saints during the tribulation. God will place these in error that they desired; oh they will escape tribulation alright, but will be sent strong delusion. Further damnation will be the end result. The truth is the only thing that could have saved them, but they refused it.

Paul tells us further, that God will send them, certain unsaved persons, that thought they were Christians, strong delusion, so they would believe a lie. What is the lie? The lie we see in this chapter is that Satan is God. It seems evident, that since certain, non believing people, professing to be saints refuse to believe the truth; God will send them strong delusion, so that they believe a lie. The lie we see is Satan will claim to be Christ and desire to be worshiped as such. I am not saying that all pre-tribulationists are unsaved; however the ones that are not, and love continuing in this error will most certainly receive God's strong delusion should they continue in that error up until the time of delusion comes.

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
This verse of scripture is an enigma to many so called Christians. They cannot believe that God would send a delusion to deceive many claiming to be His own called out followers. But that is the truth. These are the plain words of scripture. God will sort of separate the sheep from the goats. When the going gets tough and rough, the goats will stop going; they will suffer strong delusion sent by God. They will have their pre-tribulation messiah, but it will not be Jesus, but rather the antichrist.

Verse 12 is somewhat of a repeat and further elaborates on the consequence of the error they will love and follow. The end result for their rebellion is damnation. Recognizing this timing as Paul describes is very important, as it carries deadly consequence for rejecting and being unable to see the truth of it. The truth can only be revealed to the true saints having the Spirit to bear witness.

Paul tells the church in verse 13 not to worry, as God has chosen us to Salvation from the beginning. God knows who will be saved and who will not be. Going to church, tithing, and doing good deeds does not save one. Being a missionary or doing good works does not save a person. We see many shall come up to God during the GWT Judgement, and shall say, 'Lord, Lord have we not done many works, and cast out devils, etc." We know what Jesus tells them, "Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and all his fallen angels." A good indicator to see if one truly has salvation during the end times will be if one has love for God's truths or if they care to listen to them with regards to the second coming.. Paul tells us that since we have been sanctified by the Spirit, we will receive the truth, the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit and He shall guide us in all truth. The ones being deceived were never sanctified and therefore cannot receive the truth, but rather they receive God's strong delusion. They will believe Satan's lies. If one rejects the truth concerning the second coming vehemently, chances are they may not be saved.

God has called the saints by the Gospel and has predestined them to glorification through Jesus Christ our Lord. We shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. We are glorified when we either rise from the dead or when we are translated from a living human state to an immortal body; this will occur for the church during the rapture, at the end of the Great Tribulation. This will occur as Paul tells us, and John also in Revelation 11.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The last trumpet sounds and the rapture occurs. Christ now possesses the kingdoms of Earth and begins his reign as King of Kings. The saints rise as it is the time of the dead; it is time for them to rise to receive their rewards. God's wrath will now be poured out upon the kings of the earth, as seen in Revelation 19, 20. The kings become angry because they know the wrath is coming; they also know their kingship is over.



16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Good Lord, how do you expect me to answer that all in one post? Well I will try but it will have to wait until tomorrow..
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