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It's odd, but it doesn't appear that those who believe in the divinity of Christ were able to do a very good job of showing the Lady why we're right...LOL Why is this, if the doctrine is so clear in scripture? Are we not rightly dividing the word of truth:
2Ti 2:15 be diligent to present thyself approved to God--a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth;
Most of what's been presented has been, quite candidly, either refuted or shown to have another valid interpretation, and it's been done so IMO without clear violations of scripture. She has also demonstrated, when using a literal translation, why we have differences in our doctrinal positions. We may not agree with the Lady's interpretations, but I'm hard pressed to find fault with her handling of scripture. I don't agree with her conclusions, but that is another matter. But why don't we all come to the same conclusions? Particularly if this doctrine is so crucial to the foundation of our faith (for those that believe Jesus is Jehovah of the OT in the flesh).
Here are some possibilities to explain this:
1. The Lady is just messing with us. But I don't think so .
2. The Lady is right. Now what do we do? There is not a big enough towel to clear the egg off our faces if this be so! I don't think so, though.
3. Something besides scripture tells us (me at least) that Jesus is Jehovah. Possibly inward revelation? And how valid is this when confronted with others who think otherwise, and also say too that the Lord showed them the opposite of our faith?
Just so you know.. I am a type A personality (and a firstborn LOL so I do enjoy being right about things) so I tend to only state things I know and can prove are true. Also, I will readily, and even eagerly accept that I am wrong if it means adopting what is clearly truth.
I tell you this so you know that I am not trying to convert (so to speak) but to explain what I, myself, know to be true.
As to the possibilities listed above:
1. No I am not just messing with you.. you are correct.. if I was I would definitely tell you . I have been told I have a wonderful and quirky sense of humor!
2. It could be that I am right.. In fact by listing that as a valid option I see that you are open to the possibility that it may be true that Jesus was not God. However, there is no egg on your face. I want the truth as much as you so there is no condemnation in reaching that truth whether you or I are "right" about it.
3. This revelation (if you can call it that) came to me in the blink of an eye... something I had not thought of prior because I was taught that Jesus is God. It was with much study and prayer that I came to ACCEPT the idea in the first place. I wish I could share that experience with you.
There was always the thought in the back of my mind.. how can so many believe Jesus is God if it isn't true.. I resisted for quite some time but in the end I had to concede that Jesus is not Jehovah.
So I say all this to show that it is not me who wants to believe that Jesus is not God... it is what I was shown by, I believe, the leading of the spirit of God.
What I finally had to do to convince myself is to systematically go through and write down what was FACT without any interjections or interpretations...
Hopefully from my posts you will see that I am not trying to disrupt anyone's faith in God nor turn them away from God in any capacity.
I don't know what to say to you. In various places Jesus is said to be God, by the prophet Isaiah, and then by two of his disciples. Yet these are not enough evidence for you.
When it comes to the genealogies of Christ there are two separate and different genealogies given. They cannot both be Josephs, because one goes through Solomon and the other through Nathan. The fact that the bible says that none of the descendants of Coniah can be king, means that if Jesus was the natural born son of the parent whose genealogy comes down through Coniah, then Jesus cannot claim right to the throne. Being a governor of Judea and being king are two entirely different things, so Zerubbabel being chosen by God for whatever purpose other than being king, is not evidence that the curse was lifted from the descendants of Coniah where right to the throne is concerned. Thus, seeing that the scriptures plainly declare Christ as the only begotten of the father, immaculately conceived by the holy spirit so that Joseph was not his natural father ... And seeing that The writers of the new testament firmly establish that Jesus was the promised messiah who was prophesied to come as the king of Israel who would sit on the throne of David ... The only conclusion that can be rationally deduced is that the genealogy given for Christ that comes down through Nathan is the genealogy of Mary who was the natural mother of Christ, while the genealogy which came down from Solomon through Coniah must have been Joseph whom the scriptures say was not the natural father of Jesus but the foster father by marriage. Any other explanation would make it so that according to scripture Jesus was not eligible for the kingship and/or to sit upon the throne of David.
I think you miss that Shealtiel was most likely the son of Neri and adopted by Coniah.
Therefore the "true" descendants of Coniah are not the line of Joseph but the kingly line of David continues through Zerubbabel (see Jer 52:31-34).
After the captivity many were orphaned. This may explain what it is you seek about the lineage.
Hopefully from my posts you will see that I am not trying to disrupt anyone's faith in God nor turn them away from God in any capacity.
I believe you Miss Lady . I also think you're a true daughter of Abraham.
I think most of us experience refinement in our faith over time and go through spiritual trials that make us for the better. I know I did with universal redemption. That was a real 180 for me...LOL
Though I often wonder if it's possible for us to see a particular truth so brightly that it casts a shadow over other truth's that we may not have had the privilege of seeing by that light (as it were). Perhaps you've seen the truth of Christ's humanity (the Son of Man) so brilliantly that it has, for a season, overshadowed His other attributes. But through God's providence, you'll have learned more about Christ than anyone could have without going through the exercise. Just a thought. I'll keep you in prayer.
I believe you Miss Lady . I also think you're a true daughter of Abraham.
I think most of us experience refinement in our faith over time and go through spiritual trials that make us for the better. I know I did with universal redemption. That was a real 180 for me...LOL
Though I often wonder if it's possible for us to see a particular truth so brightly that it casts a shadow over other truth's that we may not have had the privilege of seeing by that light (as it were). Perhaps you've seen the truth of Christ's humanity (the Son of Man) so brilliantly that it has, for a season, overshadowed His other attributes. But through God's providence, you'll have learned more about Christ than anyone could have without going through the exercise. Just a thought. I'll keep you in prayer.
I think it also has something to do with the fact that many of Origen's works were tampered with when translated by Jerome into Latin and this made it look as If Origen himself denounced the deity of Christ. Maybe not where Kat is concerned but perhapes where some other Christian universalists are concerned. Some people may, when realizing the lies they have been fed and have believed for so many years, accidentally in some cases toss out the baby with the bathwater where some of these things are concerned.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 12-16-2009 at 06:02 PM..
You obviously don't see that you are ignoring scripture as a whole in lieu of a verse or to that you sensationalize. It is too bad no one hear ascribes to the Oneness theory.. It is interesting how all things point to Jesus (or so it seems) in that theory but in the bible everything (including Jesus) points to God...
I disagree completely. We have posted alot more than one or two scriptures, but in lieu of not believing that Christ is Deity, those things are left up to God, not us to reveal to you...all we can do is point to the scripture, and that we have done.
And yes it is interesting, that everything points to them both. Something to ponder for you, as you appear to do more so than not. That in and of itself, says something now doesn't it?
Jesus never sinned even once in His life. He was born without a sin nature and He lived His life without committing sin. If at any point in His life, Christ had sinned, then He would have been disqualified from going to the Cross and paying the penalty for our sins. The Justice of God demanded that only a perfect substitute could purchase the freedom of fallen mankind from the slave market of sin. Only a perfect sacrifice, free from blemish, could be qualified to bear in His own body, the sins of the world and satisfy the righteous demands of a Just and Holy God.
That is the very reason for the virgin birth. The sin nature is passed down through the male. Only by coming into the world through a virgin birth, could Jesus not be 'in Adam'. Had Jesus sinned even once, then He would have acquired a sin nature and become spiritually dead and unable to that for which He came into the world to do. To pay the price for our sins.
Well the scriptures do say that he was without sin. That he who was innocent died for all of us who are guilty. That is the point of his sacrifice. That he was blameless and without spot or blemish. That he was a worthy sacrifice for the sin of the world. He who was without sin became sin for us and died.
We are Kings and priests that reign with Christ and it is our mission to stand in the gap for the rest of the unbelieving world along with Christ who is the head of the body which is the church. And the laity for which we serve as priests and over whom we in the spirit reign with Christ are the unbelieving masses. It is by Christ and via proxy of the church who as an whole is the vicar of Christ in the world that the rest of the world will finally come to believe in the fullness of times, and by which even the fallen angels will come to understand Gods purpose in humanity and be reconciled at last to him again.
This might be off topic . . but who cares, this is PROFOUND!!!!!! I am blessed by this post, and you get a rep for this one brother!!!!!
I believe you Miss Lady . I also think you're a true daughter of Abraham.
I think most of us experience refinement in our faith over time and go through spiritual trials that make us for the better. I know I did with universal redemption. That was a real 180 for me...LOL
Though I often wonder if it's possible for us to see a particular truth so brightly that it casts a shadow over other truth's that we may not have had the privilege of seeing by that light (as it were). Perhaps you've seen the truth of Christ's humanity (the Son of Man) so brilliantly that it has, for a season, overshadowed His other attributes. But through God's providence, you'll have learned more about Christ than anyone could have without going through the exercise. Just a thought. I'll keep you in prayer.
Oh I have no doubt that I could be singular in focus... but remember that I truly resisted Jesus not being God. I was taught.. indoctrinated really... by a pentecostal church for nearly 30 years.
And actually once I accepted that Jesus was not God.. UR followed. I feel at peace with God now that I know Jesus Christ through scripture. No more fear, no more doubt.
Here is an article that explains it very well. And it is in a similar manner that I was lead to the conclusion that Jesus is not God.
(However, I cannot vouch for the whole site being accurate as I haven't visited it all)
Chapter One: In the Beginning God
It is lengthy but you will notice that the first thing established are the attributes of God because that is of primary importance when looking at if Jesus is God.
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. I have been told I have a wonderful and quirky sense of humor! 
