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Old 12-18-2009, 04:46 PM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,552,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Really read these passages ... Look closely at what is being said ...

John 14:8-11
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?
Notice he doesn`t say I AM THE FATHER!
He also told the apostles to be as one as he and the Father are one. But that doesn`t mean they are the same person. One day we will all be as one and God will be all in all.

Quote:
The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me;
Does the spirit of God live within us? Again he told the disciples to be as one in THE SAME WAY. That explains a lot to me. They were to be as one as he and the Father are one. So how are Jesus and the Father one? Can the disciples be as one in the same way that Jesus and the Father are one? They can`t be if that means that Jesus is the Father and the Father is Jesus. Because John can`t be Peter and Peter can`t be Matthew and Matthew can`t be Mark,etc. One day we will all be one with God and he will be all in all.


Quote:
or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
Jesus also said the apostles would do even greater miracles.



Quote:
Jhn 20:25-28
Quote:
25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"


Do you believe that Jesus is you lord and God, the one and only savior? When Jesus told Thomas to "Stop doubting and believe!", what Did Thomas say now believing? He said MY lord and MY GOD.
Ibelieve he is OUR Lord and he is OUR God. But he is not the Father.
I also believe that the Father is God of Jesus.

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
Of whom is this ONE God composed?
answer..the Father. Not the Father and son.

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
The Father is the first cause. All is out of the Father,including Jesus. The Father didn`t come out from anyone. There is a difference. After Jesus came out from the Father,everything else came through Jesus.
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
Ntice there is one God and one mediator of THAT ONE GOD. It doesn`t say they are the same. It doesn`t say there is one God and that one God is the mediator of himself and man.

"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" (I Cor. 11:3).
Here is another comparison. Are man and woman the same people? NO we are different. The man is the head of the woman. Likewise,are we and Christ the same people? NO,we are not the same person as Christ. Christ isthe head of man. In the same way using the same comparison in the same exact scripture we see that God the Father is the head of Christ.
So why do we say Christ the Father are the same person eventhough a distinction is made here. but we say that man and woman are different and man and Christ are different eventhough the same comparison is made between all of them.


The bible consistently makes a distinction between the two. Why isn`t it just stated plain and simply that they are the same exact person? Jesus never says he is the Father. He says such things as we are one and if you have seen me you have seen the Father,etc. But at very opportunity he stops short of stating it plainly. But he prays to the Father,ask the Father to forgive,says he is not good,says he is seated at the the Fathers right hand, says he will be handing things OVER to the Father,says the Father is greater than himsel,commits his spirit to the Father,ask the father why he forsook him,etc. How can you forsake yourself? Wy does he kneel down and pray to himself?
In light of all of these common sense things that show that Jesus is talking and praying to a different person,why do some insist that he is the Father?
If this was anyone else,we would say it is obvious they are differrent people. But somehow, when it comes to this,people just abandon the obvious.

Quote:
You all should stop doubting and believe that the lord Jesus is our God.
I believe it. But I also believe that the Father is Jesus`s God.
...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the]FATHER..." (Eph. 1:17).
Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
Jesus has a God.

 
Old 12-18-2009, 04:48 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,780,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
It seems reasonable, however the OT states:

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Apparently there are some things that God cannot do because it is against his nature. Sinning, changing his mind, being a son of man... these are things he cannot do according to the OT...

So rather than limiting God.. what we are saying is that if God cannot be killed because he is eternal then the death on the cross was not like a human death on the cross. There was no interruption in consciousness for God. If God cannot sin.. how is it that he (Jesus) was tempted as we are... God being sinless is not terribly hard to believe.

So if you kill the body in which God dwells (assuming Jesus is God in the flesh) then that is not the same thing a purely human would experience. We would be dead, an interruption in our consciousness.

God dies in the flesh ---> nothing happens.. God is still unchanged.
Human dies in the flesh ---> human is dead.

See the difference that Christy is trying to point out to you?
Not so ... Just because God does not do things, doesn't mean he cannot if he desire to. If God is omnipotent, he "can do anything". But that doesn't means he "will do" anything.


You are not seeing that If God became a man and took death upon himself as a man, he can experience real death as the man who he became and yet remain undying outside of time. The man Jesus who is God died, not the father who is outside of time and space. God can do both, he can really die, as a man, and never die, as God. And though Gd became a man and died the death of a man, because he was God death could not hold him.


Also, Numbers 23:19, God is saying he doesn't do things the way men do them, just like Christ who was a man lived like no man before him or since has lived.
 
Old 12-18-2009, 05:20 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,780,405 times
Reputation: 888
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Notice he doesn`t say I AM THE FATHER!
He also told the apostles to be as one as he and the Father are one. But that doesn`t mean they are the same person. One day we will all be as one and God will be all in all.


Does the spirit of God live within us? Again he told the disciples to be as one in THE SAME WAY. That explains a lot to me. They were to be as one as he and the Father are one. So how are Jesus and the Father one? Can the disciples be as one in the same way that Jesus and the Father are one? They can`t be if that means that Jesus is the Father and the Father is Jesus. Because John can`t be Peter and Peter can`t be Matthew and Matthew can`t be Mark,etc. One day we will all be one with God and he will be all in all.



Jesus also said the apostles would do even greater miracles.




Ibelieve he is OUR Lord and he is OUR God. But he is not the Father.
I also believe that the Father is God of Jesus.

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
Of whom is this ONE God composed?
answer..the Father. Not the Father and son.

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
The Father is the first cause. All is out of the Father,including Jesus. The Father didn`t come out from anyone. There is a difference. After Jesus came out from the Father,everything else came through Jesus.
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
Ntice there is one God and one mediator of THAT ONE GOD. It doesn`t say they are the same. It doesn`t say there is one God and that one God is the mediator of himself and man.

"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" (I Cor. 11:3).
Here is another comparison. Are man and woman the same people? NO we are different. The man is the head of the woman. Likewise,are we and Christ the same people? NO,we are not the same person as Christ. Christ isthe head of man. In the same way using the same comparison in the same exact scripture we see that God the Father is the head of Christ.
So why do we say Christ the Father are the same person eventhough a distinction is made here. but we say that man and woman are different and man and Christ are different eventhough the same comparison is made between all of them.


The bible consistently makes a distinction between the two. Why isn`t it just stated plain and simply that they are the same exact person? Jesus never says he is the Father. He says such things as we are one and if you have seen me you have seen the Father,etc. But at very opportunity he stops short of stating it plainly. But he prays to the Father,ask the Father to forgive,says he is not good,says he is seated at the the Fathers right hand, says he will be handing things OVER to the Father,says the Father is greater than himsel,commits his spirit to the Father,ask the father why he forsook him,etc. How can you forsake yourself? Wy does he kneel down and pray to himself?
In light of all of these common sense things that show that Jesus is talking and praying to a different person,why do some insist that he is the Father?
If this was anyone else,we would say it is obvious they are differrent people. But somehow, when it comes to this,people just abandon the obvious.


I believe it. But I also believe that the Father is Jesus`s God.
...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the]FATHER..." (Eph. 1:17).
Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
Jesus has a God.
I didn't say that Jesus is the father. The father is God outside of creation. Jesus is God within creation. The problem is the fact our mortal minds cannot understand how Jesus could be one with the father, the same as the father outside of time, and separate yet within the father and the father within him in time. Its a paradox ... That's why i brought up the abstraction of the dreamer.

I can have a dream where i'm someone else. I am me in the dream bu i am someone dreaming that i am someone else. I am still me as the one who is having the dream, yet i am someone else in the dream.
 
Old 12-18-2009, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
823 posts, read 1,003,709 times
Reputation: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Really read these passages ... Look closely at what is being said ...

John 14:8-11
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.


Jhn 20:25-28
25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"


Do you believe that Jesus is you lord and God, the one and only savior? When Jesus told Thomas to "Stop doubting and believe!", what Did Thomas say now believing? He said MY lord and MY GOD! ... We all should stop doubting and believe that the lord Jesus is our God.
PLEASE REALLY READ THIS AND LOOK CLOSELY AS TO WHAT IS BEING SAID.
What Did Jesus Mean About Being “One with the Father?”

I have no idea how people come to confuse this passage as Jesus trying to say he is God. He isn’t. Here is the CORRECT interpretation of what Jesus is trying to say.

He is saying that since he is doing God’s will (and not his own that he has), he is one with the father. In fact, this is mentioned several times in the bible, and clearly being ‘one’ with someone doesn’t mean you=them. Here is an example of a prayer Jesus prayed to HIS God:

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.” (John 17:20-21)

So, according to your logic, since Jesus is praying that the disciples will be ”ONE” just like he & the father are one, does that mean the disciples are God too? Does that mean 1 disciple=another? Does it make them the same person? Absolutely NOT. By the way, the disciples all have a different will, right? Yet Jesus is praying that they are one. Jesus absolutely had his own will, but he CHOSE to do God’s will. We must all do the same. Set aside our will, and follow God’s.

By the way, notice what Jesus said above. “For those who will believe in me.” The Jews already believed in God. Why would God be praying to himself that they believe in him? Jesus is saying that he hopes people will believe he is the MESSIAH & Son of God. Not God. They already believed in God. What Jesus is trying to do is convince them that he is the Messiah that they have been waiting for so long.

Don’t get too excited about Jesus saying “God is in me, and I am in him.” The bible says the same thing about us. It says in 1 John 4:16: 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. So if we love, we are in God, and God is in us, just the same with Jesus & God.

The bible says this in Genesis: A man may leave his mother & father, and cleave to his wife & become ONE flesh. Does this mean a man becomes his wife? Does this mean John=Jane? No. So this verse is just absolutely NOT saying he is God.

I think that is enough on this “one” business. One doesn’t mean “Equals.” Jesus was one with God, not THE GOD.

Jesus is our teacher who came to us to show us the way back to God.... we need to pray directly to God so that he may fill our souls with his love / holy spirit. That is how we shall inhabit the Kingdom.
 
Old 12-18-2009, 05:52 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,780,405 times
Reputation: 888
Quote:
Originally Posted by SisterKat View Post
PLEASE REALLY READ THIS AND LOOK CLOSELY AS TO WHAT IS BEING SAID.
What Did Jesus Mean About Being “One with the Father?”

I have no idea how people come to confuse this passage as Jesus trying to say he is God. He isn’t. Here is the CORRECT interpretation of what Jesus is trying to say.

He is saying that since he is doing God’s will (and not his own that he has), he is one with the father. In fact, this is mentioned several times in the bible, and clearly being ‘one’ with someone doesn’t mean you=them. Here is an example of a prayer Jesus prayed to HIS God:

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.” (John 17:20-21)

So, according to your logic, since Jesus is praying that the disciples will be ”ONE” just like he & the father are one, does that mean the disciples are God too? Does that mean 1 disciple=another? Does it make them the same person? Absolutely NOT. By the way, the disciples all have a different will, right? Yet Jesus is praying that they are one. Jesus absolutely had his own will, but he CHOSE to do God’s will. We must all do the same. Set aside our will, and follow God’s.

By the way, notice what Jesus said above. “For those who will believe in me.” The Jews already believed in God. Why would God be praying to himself that they believe in him? Jesus is saying that he hopes people will believe he is the MESSIAH & Son of God. Not God. They already believed in God. What Jesus is trying to do is convince them that he is the Messiah that they have been waiting for so long.

Don’t get too excited about Jesus saying “God is in me, and I am in him.” The bible says the same thing about us. It says in 1 John 4:16: 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. So if we love, we are in God, and God is in us, just the same with Jesus & God.

The bible says this in Genesis: A man may leave his mother & father, and cleave to his wife & become ONE flesh. Does this mean a man becomes his wife? Does this mean John=Jane? No. So this verse is just absolutely NOT saying he is God.

I think that is enough on this “one” business. One doesn’t mean “Equals.” Jesus was one with God, not THE GOD.

Jesus is our teacher who came to us to show us the way back to God.... we need to pray directly to God so that he may fill our souls with his love / holy spirit. That is how we shall inhabit the Kingdom.

Thomas said to him(Jesus) "MY LORD AND MY GOD" ... Thomas said that Jesus was his God.

Isaiah says that Jesus is the "mighty God", and the "Age enduring Father" ...

Jesus is Emmanuel which means "God with us".

Jesus is the word of God, in the beginning he was with God and he was God. Jesus became flesh and did dwell among us.


In various places throughout scripture Jesus is said to be God. No where in the bible does it say that Jesus is not God. Which do you believe the truth to be?

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 12-18-2009 at 06:09 PM..
 
Old 12-18-2009, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,992,377 times
Reputation: 420
Non-Deists,

You all are splitting hairs where there is no head of hair. You premise and approach lacks serious understanding and sense of the Word of God, let alone foundation.
 
Old 12-18-2009, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,881 posts, read 4,823,717 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You premise and approach lacks serious understanding and sense of the Word of God, let alone foundation.
We happen to have the same thoughts of you....so we will all just have to agree to disagree and be done with it.
 
Old 12-18-2009, 06:58 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
823 posts, read 1,003,709 times
Reputation: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Thomas said to him(Jesus) "MY LORD AND MY GOD" ... Thomas said that Jesus was his God.

Isaiah says that Jesus is the "mighty God", and the "Age enduring Father" ...

Jesus is Emmanuel which means "God with us".

Jesus is the word of God, in the beginning he was with God and he was God. Jesus became flesh and did dwell among us.


In various places throughout scripture Jesus is said to be God. No where in the bible does it say that Jesus is not God. Which do you believe the truth to be?
Did Thomas Call Jesus Christ God in John 20:28?

(28) Thomas answered him, “My Lord and My God.”
There are several possible reasons to why Thomas says this, that not only make sense, but agree with the original Greek semantics used in this particular scripture. I will address all possibilities below:
  1. Almost any Greek scholar will tell you that this actual sentence is not a very good one to prove Jesus is God. The reason is the exact words used in the Greek, the word Kurios was used. Here is what a Geek scholar said: (Furuli, Page 220, note 42), “If the words of John 20:28 were directed only to Jesus, is rather strange that the nominative form kurios and not the vocative form kurie was used.” But that isn’t it…
  2. The word used again here is Theos. Theos simply means, “God, a god, divine, etc.” It is rather strange that they didn’t use a direct word “Kurie when calling Jesus Lord, and then it goes on to say “Theos” instead of ho theos. Again, even if this was directed toward Jesus, it is not saying he is God the father. It could be implying he is simply divine. I think it is quite obvious that Thomas is calling the father “My God” due to the way the Greek sentence structure is, and also the fact that Jesus didn’t rebuke him. Again, ‘god’ (theos) is used all in the New Testament to refer to any kind of a ‘god.’ There is only 1 SUPREME God, and that is God Almighty. But the bible itself calls angels “gods,” satan a god of the earth, Moses a God to Pharaoh, etc. It calls Baal a false God, etc. There are ‘gods’ all in the OT & NT. But while there may be many “lords & authorities and even ‘gods’, there is but 1 Almighty, All Powerful God–God the father!
  3. The whole point of this passage is what? To prove Jesus is God? Or is it to show that Thomas doubted Jesus has been resurrected at all, but yet was filled with utter amazement as he was proved wrong by Jesus showing himself to Thomas. It is the second. This context is being misused once again to try to prove Jesus is God.
Now, let me briefly outline what this passage SHOULD have said if the point was to prove Jesus was God:
  1. It should have said, “Thomas answered and said, “My Lord is God.” Or, My Lord is God the Father. Or even, “You are Truly God.” Yet, it doesn’t do that does it? Or, even if the original Greek used the word Kurie, it would have made a stronger case that he was actually calling Jesus God, but surprisingly, it doesn’t.
  2. Just in case you are still not convinced, perhaps it will help to once again examine the scriptures just a few verses before, and literally 2 verses after. In John 20:17, Jesus’ own lips say, “…..I have not yet ascended to the Father, but tell my brothers, “I am ascending to my Father & your Father, to My God and Your God.” Again, in black and white showing Jesus Christ & God are 2 separate things. There is only 1 way to interpret this verse, and it is that Jesus has a God! Even once he returns to heaven, the father is greater because he is granting Jesus stuff!
  3. And just in case that isn’t enough to convince us of what Thomas really meant, the bible does a great job of summarizing what we are to believe in just 2 verses after (John 20:30) “…but these things are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and by believing you may have life in his name.” So right there, 2 verses later it tells us what we are to believe. Jesus is the Christ & Son of God. Don’t you think this would have been a great opportunity to show Jesus is the Father? Wouldn’t this have been a splendid time to say Jesus is THE God if it were true? Yet it isn’t at all! The verses before & after Thomas’ verse, should remove any doubt that Jesus is NOT God the father as you believe. They are absolutely different! Let’s move on…
In answer to your question. I was brought up believing Jesus was God...and once I found the truth by searching and started to pray earnestly and daily for God's Love I knew there would be no turning back.....I have found my home. I love Jesus with all of my heart.....but I pray to God.
 
Old 12-18-2009, 07:02 PM
 
34,687 posts, read 22,495,609 times
Reputation: 5595
Quote:
Originally Posted by SisterKat View Post
PLEASE REALLY READ THIS AND LOOK CLOSELY AS TO WHAT IS BEING SAID.
What Did Jesus Mean About Being “One with the Father?”

I have no idea how people come to confuse this passage as Jesus trying to say he is God. He isn’t. Here is the CORRECT interpretation of what Jesus is trying to say.

He is saying that since he is doing God’s will (and not his own that he has), he is one with the father. In fact, this is mentioned several times in the bible, and clearly being ‘one’ with someone doesn’t mean you=them. Here is an example of a prayer Jesus prayed to HIS God:

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.” (John 17:20-21)

So, according to your logic, since Jesus is praying that the disciples will be ”ONE” just like he & the father are one, does that mean the disciples are God too? Does that mean 1 disciple=another? Does it make them the same person? Absolutely NOT. By the way, the disciples all have a different will, right? Yet Jesus is praying that they are one. Jesus absolutely had his own will, but he CHOSE to do God’s will. We must all do the same. Set aside our will, and follow God’s.

By the way, notice what Jesus said above. “For those who will believe in me.” The Jews already believed in God. Why would God be praying to himself that they believe in him? Jesus is saying that he hopes people will believe he is the MESSIAH & Son of God. Not God. They already believed in God. What Jesus is trying to do is convince them that he is the Messiah that they have been waiting for so long.

Don’t get too excited about Jesus saying “God is in me, and I am in him.” The bible says the same thing about us. It says in 1 John 4:16: 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. So if we love, we are in God, and God is in us, just the same with Jesus & God.

The bible says this in Genesis: A man may leave his mother & father, and cleave to his wife & become ONE flesh. Does this mean a man becomes his wife? Does this mean John=Jane? No. So this verse is just absolutely NOT saying he is God.

I think that is enough on this “one” business. One doesn’t mean “Equals.” Jesus was one with God, not THE GOD.

Jesus is our teacher who came to us to show us the way back to God.... we need to pray directly to God so that he may fill our souls with his love / holy spirit. That is how we shall inhabit the Kingdom.
This is all very true . . . and for all practical purposes . . . should be a non-issue for Christians . . . since our connection to God the Father is THROUGH Jesus anyway . . . hard to see what real difference this distinction would make in the final analysis, IMO.
 
Old 12-18-2009, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,430 posts, read 7,843,628 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Not so ... Just because God does not do things, doesn't mean he cannot if he desire to. If God is omnipotent, he "can do anything". But that doesn't means he "will do" anything.


You are not seeing that If God became a man and took death upon himself as a man, he can experience real death as the man who he became and yet remain undying outside of time. The man Jesus who is God died, not the father who is outside of time and space. God can do both, he can really die, as a man, and never die, as God. And though Gd became a man and died the death of a man, because he was God death could not hold him.


Also, Numbers 23:19, God is saying he doesn't do things the way men do them, just like Christ who was a man lived like no man before him or since has lived.
You speak as though God need to experience death... what part of God's "death" was and atonement if he really didn't die. Humans die. We know that we never see them here again. What part of that fear did God experience? There was no death for him as he is the creator of death, pain, sorrow. Why did he need to kill himself then raise himself. That makes no sense to me. All to teach how to love God and your neighbor?

How about... Jesus was born a man... Died a man... and God glorified him.

Jesus felt death coming:
Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

He wanted to live.

Another point is:
The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, Luke 23:35 "He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One."

If they were crucifying him because he claimed to be God then why is it said here he is the "Christ of God, the Chosen one?"
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