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And I believe the people praising God before the throne are INNUMERABLE!
Revelation 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Innumerable: adj. Too numerous to be counted; numberless.
Yes --- there seems to be contrast in Revelation pointing to before and after
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
There are those that are sealed before the judgements ---------- then afterwards we have the innumerable multitude that go through the tribulation and endure the judgements and are praising God.
There are those that are saved from wrath ---- and then those that need to endure the judgments and are ultimately saved.
I think a valid question to ask yourself is, 'Do we save ourselves in some manner or does God save us?' If you believe that God saves us, then why would God create someone whom He wasn't going to save, especially considering His all-knowing-ness?
I was thinking about this question when I was cleaning today and it makes complete sense. God created man with free will. If he only created people who were going to worship him, there would be no free will in that.
You can ask the same question- Why did God create Satan if He knew he would turn on Him? Why did God create the tree of knowledge of good and evil if he knew that Adam and Eve would eat from it? All these questions come down to free will. We have a choice to do right or wrong because God loves us so much to give us a choice. He never forces us to do anything we don't want to do.
What is the point in debating with you? Clearly you are set in your ways. Isn't it rather pointless to debate with someone who has no intent in changing? It's a waste of my time.
The same could be said for you --- you stick with what you believe and then when someone points out to scriptures that are contradictory instead of trying to see why they are contradictory you say "I do not know why but I trust what I have been told by my church to be right and will not budge"
This is exactly the problem Jesus had with the Jews -- they believed they were Abrahams seed and were justified in stoning people because scripture said so --- when God said Thou shalt not kill
The same could be said for you --- you stick with what you believe and then when someone points out to scriptures that are contradictory instead of trying to see why they are contradictory you say "I do not know why but I trust what I have been told by my church to be right and will not budge"
This is exactly the problem Jesus had with the Jews -- they believed they were Abrahams seed and were justified in stoning people because scripture said so --- when God said Thou shalt not kill
Interesting that you quote something I never said. Why would you do that?
I am here because I believe that if you do not accept Christ you will be in hell. Why are you here? To get me to follow universalism? If you believe I am so set in my ways, why bother?
Edit: I could sit at home and watch tv, but instead I am spending my time talking about something that is literally life or death. I care that's why I came here in the first place.
Yes --- there seems to be contrast in Revelation pointing to before and after
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, *and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
There are those that are sealed before the judgements ---------- then afterwards we have the innumerable multitude that go through the tribulation and endure the judgements and are praising God.
There are those that are saved from wrath ---- and then those that need to endure the judgments and are ultimately saved.
You seem to be on the right track.
*Repentant...apart from those "who have no guile/sinless"...Rev. 14:4-5?
That's nice of Him, huh? "I'd never force you to go to heaven. I'm so nice that I'm going to let you choose to burn for eternity." Nonsense!
Nice of him? It's justice. God never claimed to be "nice". He wiped out cities that were morally corrupt, he destroyed people in the flood. What is nice about that? God is JUST. He's WAY more than simply love. Do you let a murderer walk free? When he goes to prison, do you say, that's not nice? There are punishments for doing wrong!!
Interesting that you quote something I never said. Why would you do that?
I am here because I believe that if you do not accept Christ you will be in hell. Why are you here? To get me to follow universalism?
I am here to talk with people about what the scriptures mean to me. To learn and to share. Not specifically to get you to follow universalism.
From your posting I believe you have been raised as a cultural christian - --- your family are christians and probably from a specific denomination and have the perception that only christians are going to be saved from hell, to be saved from hell you need to convert to christianity.
Everyones belief are shaped by the culture that they have been brought up in -- I was brought up as a cultural christian, and I see the bias and strict blind adherence to indoctrination.
I was raised in the pentecostal environment with the threats of hell for all those that do not believe and convert to the right denomination of christianity. And I see the contradictions within the religion of christianity.
Nice of him? It's justice. God never claimed to be "nice". He wiped out cities that were morally corrupt, he destroyed people in the flood. What is nice about that? God is JUST. He's WAY more than simply love. Do you let a murderer walk free? When he goes to prison, do you say, that's not nice?
I am here to talk with people about what the scriptures mean to me. To learn and to share. Not specifically to get you to follow universalism.
From your posting I believe you have been raised as a cultural christian - --- your family are christians and probably from a specific denomination and have the perception that only christians are going to be saved from hell, to be saved from hell you need to convert to christianity.
Everyones belief are shaped by the culture that they have been brought up in -- I was brought up as a cultural christian, and I see the bias and strict blind adherence to indoctrination.
I was raised in the pentecostal environment with the threats of hell for all those that do not believe and convert to the right denomination of christianity. And I see the contradictions within the religion of christianity.
Of course everyones beliefs are shaped somewhat by their upbringing, but to an extent. My mother was raised Catholic (they weren't devout at all) and my father was raised as really nothing just be good people. My mother became saved in her 20s as did my father.
I was raised in a Christian household, but it was MY decision. It was also MY decision to be baptized at age 14. I was completely changed after that. No we weren't raised in a denomination. My parents are non-denominational. I went to Baptist school, but was never a Baptist. There are things I disagree with that denomination, but I don't believe that aren't Christians. In high school and college I went to a Presbyterian church. My parents still attend a non-denominational church. My husband is Nazarene. I am open to different denominations at this time, but know why I believe what I believe and am not swayed by the masses.
Although my brother and I grew up at the same Baptist schools and with the same parents, I am very different than him in my faith. We are both Christians, but I take the Bible literally. He doesn't. This is why I don't think just because you grow up in a Christian household you will believe just like you are taught. I have different beliefs than my parents as does my brother.
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