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This is a terrible analogy! BUT....I'm just trying to think of something to help you see what I am saying:
Two blind men have fallen into a deep sleep. While they were sleeping, their sight was miraculously restored. They both wake up. One of the men opens his eyes and starts to shout "I can SEE!". He runs around reading everything he can get his hands on, he runs outside and shouts great praises about the beauty of creation, the trees, the sky, the sun, he can SEE! He is no longer living in darkness!! HE no longer fumbles around in darkness. He no longer trips up and injures himself over and over. He can SEE!!!
The other man wakes up, but does not open his eyes, and instead keeps them closed, remaining in darkness. Both men have had their sight restored, but the first man has notably had his sight restore, He has ESPECIALLY had his sight restored. He is SEEING!
The other man, again.... still HAS sight, yet He does not know it.
There is a reason why the other man still has sight, but has not had his eyes OPENED to it YET. We trust God because we know HIS TRUE CHARACTER. We trust HIM WITH that other man who has not yet opened His eyes.
It's a beautiful thing to have FULL PEACE, to LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR as yourself, KNOWING God also LOVES them and has them in the palm of HIS hand... even if He hasn't **YET** opened their eyes.
I'm sorry, Cantwait2leave, don't take this the wrong way, but I am not interested in what some pastor has to say. I am interested in YOUR view. You are who I am discussing with. We must all seek things out, amen?
Let's say ET is true:
Jesus Christ is the saviour of all mankind, ESPECIALLY of those who believe.
So... Jesus Christ is the saviour of all mankind who believes, ESPECIALLY of those who believe.
??? That makes no sense at all.
It only truly makes sense in the context of the true gospel.
Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL mankind, especially of those who believe. Those who BELIEVE, like I said before, have been spiritually made alive. They are "notably" saved, (especially, notably, an example of). Those who BELIEVE are those who are walking OUT of the darkness INTO His light. They are an EXAMPLE, a SIGN, a witness. They are ESPECIALLY saved because they BELIEVE.
When you see everything through the perspective of some people being saved and others being tortured for all eternity (not saved)... then you can't discern anything. Everything is turned asunder, and things that make no sense at all... the human mind starts to PRETEND that they do. Because I think it's just a coping mechanism or something. All hypocrises are pushed aside and not dealt with or they are swept under the rug. The more you try to FORCE it to fit, the more you shave and cut those puzzle pieces and JAM them together, the more SKEWED your picture of God becomes. Either something fits or it does not. If you ALTER the puzzle piece, you end up with a FALSE picture of God.
peace.
Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all mankind, ESPECIALLY of those who believe.
I never noticed that verse before I started studying UR.
(1) The Universalist Interpretation - "God is the Savior of all men" means that all who have ever lived will be saved. This of course is contrary to all sound doctrine. If this was true, the rest of the verse would have no meaning whatsoever when it says "especially of those who believe."
(2) The Arminian Interpretation - God wants to save everyone but His desire is many times thwarted by the obsinate free will of man. God is able to save all men, but though all can be saved, only believers actually are. Certainly this is a popular view, but we must be clear that this is not what the text says. It does not say God wants to save, but that He actually saves: He is actually the Savior (in some sense) of all men.
(3) The Reformed Interpretation - God is the Savior of all men (in one sense) and especially of those who believe (in another sense). Let me be quick to say that this is not the only way reformed people have understood this verse, but I do believe this is the correct interpretation.
I do agree that Jesus is actually the saviour of all -- To me where it says that all men are saved in one sense is by being allowed a physical life and that the "especially" believers means a spiritual regeneration is in opposition to this
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
-- what I believe is that all will be saved but the believers are especially saved as they are the first fruits and do not suffer the second death ---- all are raised, some from destruction and wrath, the first fruits are especially saved as they are saved from wrath.
I agree with the article that there are different kinds of salvation mentioned in the scriptures and some of the references in the OT and NT refer to the destruction that was coming to the Jews in 70AD.
PCcamps . . . Why Did God, send His ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, Jesus, to be beaten violently, mocked, spit on, and crucified for you and me? That is Love . . . . God loved His Son . . . . yet put him through a savage, violent beating and crucification . . . . Are you saying he doesn't love his Son?
What Jesus did in the past was absolutely necessary, says the Universalist, but that is all finished now?????????????? We don’t need Jesus anymore. Salvation is now automatic for everyone. [i]Men don’t have to believe in Jesus. They don’t have to love Him. They don’t even have to like Him. Everyone receives salvation, even Judas Iscariot, according to Universalism.[/I]
Hint—whenever Jesus Christ is not the centerpiece of a particular teaching, that teaching is not of God.
Under the doctrine of Universalism, the Gospel becomes an old-fashioned, outdated message, and those who believe in that are labeled Fundy's????
Lifesign where have i even suggested that God doesn't love the Son.
Are you suggesting that because He went through that,that i believe that God didn't love him ? that's absurd , what Jesus went through was not eternal suffering .
This is where UR is misunderstood and mis represented by many opponents of it and often purposely , i believe in discipline,chastisement and judgement and as far as i know so do all who believe in UR, but discipline,chastiement and judgement are not words that mean eternal torment only those who are not sure of their relationship and standing with the Lord believe they are
Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all mankind, ESPECIALLY of those who believe.
Jesus died for the sins of all- past, present, future. So no-one can claim to have acted with impunity, and to be God rather than Jesus. However, only those who trust in Jesus' sacrifice will actually receive forgiveness, because to fail to trust is either to fail to accept that one has sinned, or to accept that one has sinned but say that one's sin is acceptable. And to say that is to commit the unforgivable sin, and to make oneself answerable for one's sins. Which of course is fatal, and most will not actually be saved.
Jesus died for the sins of all- past, present, future. So no-one can claim to have acted with impunity, and to be God rather than Jesus. However, only those who trust in Jesus' sacrifice will actually receive forgiveness, because to fail to trust is either to fail to accept that one has sinned, or to accept that one has sinned but say that one's sin is acceptable. And to say that is to commit the unforgivable sin, and to make oneself answerable for one's sins. Which of course is fatal, and most will not actually be saved.
You believe it's fatal in the sense that you are going to fry for your sin , the truth is
4Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted. 5Buthe was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his woundswe are healed. 6We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
You believe it's fatal in the sense that you are going to fry for your sin , the truth is
4Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted. 5Buthe was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his woundswe are healed. 6We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
If that contradicts the content of #117, why does it?
Jesus died for the sins of all- past, present, future. So no-one can claim to have acted with impunity, and to be God rather than Jesus. However, only those who trust in Jesus' sacrifice will actually receive forgiveness, because to fail to trust is either to fail to accept that one has sinned, or to accept that one has sinned but say that one's sin is acceptable. And to say that is to commit the unforgivable sin, and to make oneself answerable for one's sins. Which of course is fatal, and most will not actually be saved.
O.K. we agree that Jesus died for the sins of all- past, present and future.
But then you say: "only those who trust in Jesus' sacrifice will actually receive forgiveness."
The only way anyone can believe is if God gives them faith to believe in the first place. So the responsibility rests on God, not man.
Let me ask you: Did you believe in Adam so you could get what came out of his disobedience (read Romans 5:12, 18,19)?
Likewise, does Romans 5:18,19 say one has to believe in Jesus to get what comes out of His obedience?
Two men, two outcomes. But mankind are neutral recipients of what comes from both.
Fair is fair. If all mankind can be made sinners due to what Adam did then all mankind can be made righteous due to what Christ did.
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