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Notice that it says They that have done good....and they that have done evil. How does that fit into your belief that it's simple because all you have to do to be saved is believe?
UR doesn't teach there are no consequences for sin, but we know God and that's the reason we know He won't torture people.
How does that fit into UR? The burden of proof is on you.
1 Timothy 4:10- If UR was true, the rest of the verse would have no meaning whatsoever when it says "especially of those who believe"
He is the saviour... ESPECIALLY of THOSE who believe.
What's not to understand?
(I don't say this in an unkind way, please understand. I just don't see why that verse is so hard to understand, that's all.)
Here's something to ponder: how do these verses not contradict UR? I'm curious to see your answer.
Matthew 13:36-43 "Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field." He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels."As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."
Matthew 25:1-13 "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep." At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'" But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut." Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'" But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'" Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."
Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Luke 13:23-30 "Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'" Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'" There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
What does any of this have to do with Jesus Christ not saving all?
What does any of this have to do with Him not being ALL in ALL like He says HE will be??
These verses speak of His refining fire, yes... of course!
All will walk through His refining fire, one way or another.
All will come to the knowledge of truth.
Yes, there is a narrow way which leads to life... and the wide road that leads to destruction.
There is MUCH on that wide road that is being destroyed.
Again... this is GOOD NEWS! For ALL of us!
The people who are upset that they "don't get to sin" and are "missing out of the fun" aren't true Christians or are extremely immature Christians IMO.
1 Timothy 4:10- If UR was true, the rest of the verse would have no meaning whatsoever when it says "especially of those who believe"
Regarding Matthew 24:40-41- The man that will be left behind is the nonbeliever in Christ's 2nd coming. Not a carnal man/nature!
Here's something to ponder: how do these verses not contradict UR? I'm curious to see your answer.
Matthew 13:36-43 "Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field." He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels."As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."
Matthew 25:1-13 "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep." At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'" But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut." Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'" But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'" Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."
Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Luke 13:23-30 "Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'" Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'" There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
Hi CantWait2Leave,
I posted this in the other thread. It addresses Matt 7. I will try to address the other verses later. You can search and find where they have been discussed in the past.
But its like sparrow said. None of those verses say God will not save all.
--
If you search these forums, you will see Matt 7:21-23 has been addressed many times by the "universalists".
Here it is in the NIV:
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Here it is in Young's Literal Translation:
Matt 7:21 `Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
23 and then I will acknowledge to them, that -- I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.
The key thing to understand here is the "Kingdom of Heaven" is not the same thing as "Heaven". Look up "Kingdom" in a concordance. It is actually more speaking about the reign of Christ or the "reign of the heavens" as it is called in YLT. This is specifically speaking about those who will reign with Christ. Scripture is clear, not everyone will reign with Christ. What happens to the rest? Later on in Matt 8 we read this:
NIV:
Matt 8:12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
YLT:
Matt 8:12 but the sons of the reign shall be cast forth to the outer darkness -- there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.'
This is not referring to an "eternal hell" as is commonly taught. Notice those case out are called "subjects of the Kingdom" or even "sons of the reign". Yes they will be gnashing their teeth, but it will not be forever. Does "subjects" or "sons" of the kingdom sound like "hellbound sinners" to you?
They will indeed be brought into the Kingdom, not as rulers, but in subjection to God. For all things will eventually be subjected to God; this includes all those reigning. Their reign will end, along with Christ who gives up His reign (1 Cor 15:25) and then all will be subjected to God and God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:22-28). God still wants to save all men (as you like to point out in 1 Tim 2:4), and He will acheive what He wants (Job 23:13, Isaiah 46:10).
So perhaps you can see that Matt 7:21-23 does not imply that anyone is going to an eternal hell.
He is the saviour... ESPECIALLY of THOSE who believe.
What's not to understand?
(I don't say this in an unkind way, please understand. I just don't see why that verse is so hard to understand, that's all.)
You really don't see why "especially for those who believe" makes no sense if UR is true? Why would Paul add that?
PCcamps . . . Why Did God, send His ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, Jesus, to be beaten violently, mocked, spit on, and crucified for you and me? That is Love . . . . God loved His Son . . . . yet put him through a savage, violent beating and crucification . . . . Are you saying he doesn't love his Son?
What Jesus did in the past was absolutely necessary, says the Universalist, but that is all finished now?????????????? We don’t need Jesus anymore. Salvation is now automatic for everyone. [i]Men don’t have to believe in Jesus. They don’t have to love Him. They don’t even have to like Him. Everyone receives salvation, even Judas Iscariot, according to Universalism.[/I]
Hint—whenever Jesus Christ is not the centerpiece of a particular teaching, that teaching is not of God.
Under the doctrine of Universalism, the Gospel becomes an old-fashioned, outdated message, and those who believe in that are labeled Fundy's????
I'm sorry, Cantwait2leave, don't take this the wrong way, but I am not interested in what some pastor has to say. I am interested in YOUR view. You are who I am discussing with. We must all seek things out, amen?
Let's say ET is true:
Jesus Christ is the saviour of all mankind, ESPECIALLY of those who believe.
So... Jesus Christ is the saviour of all mankind who believes, ESPECIALLY of those who believe.
??? That makes no sense at all.
It only truly makes sense in the context of the true gospel.
Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL mankind, especially of those who believe. Those who BELIEVE, like I said before, have been spiritually made alive. They are "notably" saved, (especially, notably, an example of). Those who BELIEVE are those who are walking OUT of the darkness INTO His light. They are an EXAMPLE, a SIGN, a witness. They are ESPECIALLY saved because they BELIEVE.
When you see everything through the perspective of some people being saved and others being tortured for all eternity (not saved)... then you can't discern anything. Everything is turned asunder, and things that make no sense at all... the human mind starts to PRETEND that they do. Because I think it's just a coping mechanism or something. All hypocrises are pushed aside and not dealt with or they are swept under the rug. The more you try to FORCE it to fit, the more you shave and cut those puzzle pieces and JAM them together, the more SKEWED your picture of God becomes. Either something fits or it does not. If you ALTER the puzzle piece, you end up with a FALSE picture of God.
peace.
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