Should Cincinnati and Dayton share an airport? (Columbus, Springfield: lawsuit, legal)

[abr7rmj]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

True, Cincinnati definitely is a retail megaplus. But regardless, Cincinnati, Columbus, anywhere else in the state, $400 million is too much to spend. I am just sick and tired of everything from pro sports to companies having their hands out for money. The majority of company deals are tax incentives. As soon as the tax exemption period runs out off they are again for some other green pasture. Just wait Boeing will relocate from Chicago once their incentives run out.

I understand the Charlotte agreement for Chiquita involves some promise of new job additions over their current employment. Whoever bought that deal needs to relocate to Cincinnati, sounds like something we would negotiate. But by the time it does not happen the relocation expense reimbursements and the rest will be history.

I agree with this. Unfortunately, it's the current climate we live in.

[abr7rmj]

Originally Posted by The Don

#1 So I need to book a flight for my daughter and granddaughter back to BWI right after Christmas... Best Price non-stop from CVG: $320; from DAY $153

Now multiply that by - I don't know a hundred - and you can see the disadvantage that Cincinnati based companies have to put up with.

#2 The company I work for just brought a couple of job candidates in for interviews. The guy from New York was astonished by two things: The price of his airline ticket (provided by my company, naturally) and how empty CVG was.

The guy from Texas had to connect in Detroit so it took him all afternoon to get home - it cut into the time we had to interview him.

So tell me the impact that CVG has on the business climate of Cincinnati!

CVG is broken and WILL NOT BE FIXED. Let's look for better alternatives.

Short of an entirely new airport being built somewhere north of Cincinnati around Middletown or Monroe, by far the best alternative is to attract additional airlines. Southwest would be, by far, the most desirable. Think that BWI cost would stay at $320 when Southwest and Delta are both offering daily non-stops?

I understand Delta's heinous pricing policy out of CVG, but why do other airlines follow suit? For example, why is it $320 to fly Continental from CVG to BWI through Cleveland, but it would be much cheaper to fly on a similar plane from Dayton to BWI, through Cleveland.

Why wouldn't the other existing airlines seek to be more competitive here and try to siphon off a bulk of Delta's customers by offering reasonable fares through their hubs? After all, they can't use the direct flight argument that Delta can. Any flights on American, United, Continental, etc. out of CVG are going through their hubs. Why the high fares?

[kjbrill]

abr7rmj... I agree the best answer is additional airline competition at CVG. But what will it take to make that happen?

Even in the considerable downsized state, Delta still dominates CVG. Terminal 2 has only 8 gates. Terminal 3, Concourse B alone has 39 gates. That is 5:1 ratio. So we have 5 airlines sharing 8 gates, and 1 having access to 39.

As I commented before, Delta built Terminal 3 at a cost of $500 million. Far as I know that gives them exclusive rights to it. So where are other competitors supposed to go?

Delta has maintained they must charge the fares they do out of CVG to be profitable. As we know this must be BS, as airline fares in nearby airports are considerably less and we have to assume are operating at a profit. But as long as competition is minimal there is no reason for Delta to reduce their fares.

Sure, people drive to Dayton, Columbus, and Indianapolis to get lower fares. But how many really do that? Apparently not enough to get Delta to drop their fares.

I am not surprised the current competitors at CVG do not lower their fares much below Delta. In the past, every time that has been attempted Delta has countered with temporarily lowering their fares on the equivalent routes even more until the competitor has folded. And if they were successful in siphoning off enough Delta business to warrant more flights, where would they operate?

The only people which could possibly shed some light on all of this is the Kenton County Airport Board.
1) What, if anything are they doing to encourage additional airlines? What are the roadblocks? I believe one is not enough gate capacity and the airlines are not about to get into a terminal construction situation at their cost.
2) Have they been in negotiations with Delta for other airlines to use Concourse A in Terminal 3? What has been Delta's response?
3) Have they considered using Terminal 1 as a departure point via shuttle bus to Concourse C rather than via Terminal 3 and renaming it Terminal 4. The airport built and owns Concourse C. While it is not ideal, it is new enough to consider for at least the commuter type runs Comair operated out of it and which most of the flights out of Terminal 2 currently actually are. This could potentially free up Terminal 2 with its jetway structure for a single new airline like Southwest.

We might at least attempt a letter to the editors campaign to the Enquirer and some of the local news stations to try and do some honest reporting for a change. Just complaining about the situation is going to do nothing. And a pie-in-the-sky wish for a new regional airport between Cincinnati and Dayton in this economic and airline industry environment is a pure waste of breath.

The total lack of information out of the Kenton County Airport Board, indicates they are either:
1) Completely overwhelmed by the situation and have no idea what to do.
2) Are totally inept and don't realize the severity of the situation or don't care.

PS. The Kenton County Airport Board is an appointed authority, the majority of which (13) are appointed by the Judge Executive of Kenton County. The first 7 actual voting members are subject to no term limits. Now how political of a situation do you think that is? They meet 1 night a month. The rest of the airport operations are carried out by various entities they are supposedly in charge of. And I thought school boards were undermanned and out of their league economically, at least they are elected.

[buckeyenative01]

I thought there was some buzz in the Enquirer that if Southwest came to CVG, they'd possibly look at re-opening Terminal 1?

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by buckeyenative01

I thought there was some buzz in the Enquirer that if Southwest came to CVG, they'd possibly look at re-opening Terminal 1?

That could possibly be true, but Terminal 1 of course is the original and a very old facility. I believe my idea to use it as a feeder out to Concourse C in the middle of the tarmac is a better idea. Concourse C is much newer and could be used as a short flight, small plane departure point, since it does not have jetways. If these type of flights were moved from Terminal 2, it could be used for a Southwest departure point. If the airport authority believe reopening Terminal 1 as a passenger terminal is the most cost effective I would defer to their expertise.

Regardless, what is needed is getting something moving forward.

[buckeyenative01]

The problem is that Southwest uses only one type of airplane: Boeing 737s. They don't use anything else, which might be problematic if they're relegated to a terminal formerly used primarily for commuter planes?

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by buckeyenative01

The problem is that Southwest uses only one type of airplane: Boeing 737s. They don't use anything else, which might be problematic if they're relegated to a terminal formerly used primarily for commuter planes?

Never said to relegate them to a terminal used for commuter planes. The original Terminal 1 and Terminal 2, while old, where equipped with jetways for full size jets. This is why I suggested re-opening Concourse C out on the tarmac as a commuter jet terminal, which is what it was built for, and making either Terminal 2 or Terminal 1 available for an airline flying full sized jets. Of course a much easier solution would be to open Concourse A in Terminal 3 up for a competitive airline since it is also equipped with jetways and is a whole lot nicer facility.

[abr7rmj]

Originally Posted by buckeyenative01

The problem is that Southwest uses only one type of airplane: Boeing 737s. They don't use anything else, which might be problematic if they're relegated to a terminal formerly used primarily for commuter planes?

Not to mention, the concourse is separated from the rest of the airport and is only accessible via shuttle bus. I've connected at CVG and taken that bus from the main Delta terminal out to Concourse C and, let me tell you, it's no fun. In July it's stifling hot and waiting around down on an airport tarmac is no place to be. Not to mention it's a hassle to get to/from.

Also, Concourse C is rather large and would seem to be an illogical places to direct the five or six Southwest planes that would fly in here on a daily basis. It would only really make sense if Southwest buy the facility, renovate it and use it as a facility for connecting passengers. That would minimize the shuttle bus hassle and relegate its use only for local passengers. Connecting passengers would never have to leave the concourse.

But it might just be cheaper to completely renovate/expand Terminal 1 or 2.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

abr7rmj
The only people which could possibly shed some light on all of this is the Kenton County Airport Board.

PS. The Kenton County Airport Board is an appointed authority, the majority of which (13) are appointed by the Judge Executive of Kenton County. The first 7 actual voting members are subject to no term limits. Now how political of a situation do you think that is? They meet 1 night a month. The rest of the airport operations are carried out by various entities they are supposedly in charge of. And I thought school boards were undermanned and out of their league economically, at least they are elected.

I think you are proving my point... CVG is broken and will not be fixed.

But - what if we started from scratch and opened a new facility with double the potential customers?

And -- the control of the facility is by an advisory board appointed by people we could actually vote for?

[buckeyenative01]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

Never said to relegate them to a terminal used for commuter planes. The original Terminal 1 and Terminal 2, while old, where equipped with jetways for full size jets. This is why I suggested re-opening Concourse C out on the tarmac as a commuter jet terminal, which is what it was built for, and making either Terminal 2 or Terminal 1 available for an airline flying full sized jets. Of course a much easier solution would be to open Concourse A in Terminal 3 up for a competitive airline since it is also equipped with jetways and is a whole lot nicer facility.

My apologies, I misread what you wrote.

Southwest has taken crap terminals before and transformed them (albeit in focus cities like Phoenix, Baltimore, Chicago-Midway and Nashville). There might be hope for some TLC in whatever concourse they go to if they decide to enter the CVG market and find a way to steal some of Delta's thunder.