Light Rail - Where and how do we get started! (Cincinnati: transfer to, maintenance)

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

The 71X is not funded by Metro. It is funded by Warren County, who pays Metro to operate the bus route. Same with the 42X, except that's Butler County paying for it. If you want the fares to be cheaper on these express routes, complain to your county commissioners, not Metro.

And I am frequently reading about Warren Co. discussions of stopping their funding of the express bus routes saying the ridership is just not worth the expense. Others argue subsidizing a small percentage of the population at taxpayer expense is unfair. The original argument was the bus would bring people out from the City to work in Warren Co. so it supported businesses here. That is just not realistic as there is no practical way to get from the bus pickup/dropoff stations to the actual businesses. Same is true in Butler Co. I do not see that changing with light rail.

Everyone contends about the development along light rail lines. First of all, I look at the two most frequently used corridors in the Cincinnati area, I-71 and I-75. Where is the light rail ROW? I can't find one without excavating banks along the roadway and putting in extremely ugly retaining walls. Either that or spending a large fortune acquiring property and demolishing existing structures, which for the most part are not blighted. What is the gain in destroying perfectly good structures? Where is all of this development going to occur? Please show me the actual path of the light rail, the projected costs, and especially the projected ROI on development.

Frankly I am getting tired of hearing about Portland. It is over half a continent away and has exactly what in common with Cincinnati?

The Cincinnati streetcar is a horse of a different nature. First of all part of it is being put into what was a blighted neighborhood - OTR. At the rate things are going the neighborhood may be rehabbed before the streetcar is a reality. But you can argue that was in anticipation of the streetcar. The next phase is the uptown area around UC and the hospitals. Not going to hold my breath waiting on funding for that. But I can agree the streetcar is an attractive alternative for more than just commuting to a job.

[unusualfire]

? There is already a path selected for light rail in the region. Mostly using underused and existing railroad right of way.

[natininja]

The ROI is higher than that of the $440mil Portsmouth, OH bypass, which apparently there is plenty of money for.

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by unusualfire

? There is already a path selected for light rail in the region. Mostly using underused and existing railroad right of way.

Just where is it? The only one I know of is the proposed Eastern Corridor. To even begin using it there are significant expenditures to repair the roadbed, replace falling down trestles, etc. Add to thqat it does not pass through any significant population densities. I guess that is a prospect for development, providing they want to build in a flood plain.

Show me just one actual map for light rail serving either the I-75 or I-71 corridors into either Warren or Butler Counties. Ignoring them is likely 70% of the total potential.

[unusualfire]

Recent Cincinnati Commuter Rail and Light Rail Planning


You have lived in the region long enough to know these things. Or just totally ignored what's been happening the past 2 decades. Well then again this is a Hamilton county project.

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by unusualfire

Recent Cincinnati Commuter Rail and Light Rail Planning


You have lived in the region long enough to know these things. Or just totally ignored what's been happening the past 2 decades. Well then again this is a Hamilton county project.

You want to really call that a recent proposal and more realisticly a plan? The only map for the first I-71 corridor project is admittedly from the 2002 MetroMoves project which was soundly defeated. All of the stations identified are either on Montgomery or Blue Ash Rds. So just how is this an I-71 project other than it is somewhat in the same general area?

Anyone can make a general graphic and put nice circles and names on it. When a project contains an actual proposed engineered ROW complete with intersections with existing roads, actual station locations, maybe someone will take it seriously. Until then it is like throwing darts in a bar, you hopew to at least hit the board.

There is No Way Hamilton Co. is going to build a light rail system on its own. Where is the incentive? What percentage of Hamilton Co. residents are screaming for a more cost effective way to get to work? In particular, what percentage of Hamilton Co. residents near the outlying fringes even work in Hamilton Co.?

If the Cincinnati streetcar becomes a physical reality, and I still have my doubts, then expanding it to more sections of the City may be a reality. The speed may be a factor, but likely the routing and timing is more significant. I can readily see expanding the streetcar out to say Norwood, Pleasant Ridge, Oakley, Hyde Park, etc. Much beyond that I believe it would become time prohibitive.

You have one thing right, I basically ignore proposals I feel have a snow balls chance in H*ll of succeeding.

[jmecklenborg]

I'm just going to ignore Kjbrill's post, he has already wasted so much of our time. Instead, I'm going to restate some basics.

There are five types of light rail lines*:
1. Lines that travel on abandoned freight railroad right-of-ways.
2. Lines that travel in the median or adjacent to expressways.
3. Lines that travel in streets, like a streetcar, often with signal priority and longer runs between stations than a bus or streetcar.
4. Lines that travel on a purpose-built elevated viaduct.
5. Lines that travel in a purpose-built subway tunnel.

*Many light rail lines use some combination of these five types.

Ways in which light rail systems are funded:
1. County or multi-county sales tax. This tax retires construction bonds AND subsidizes yearly operation. The tax is the linchpin that makes 2 and 3 possible.
2. Federal grants. These grants usually ONLY pay for construction, not operation. The federal government often matches a local sum, meaning the capital cost of a project will be split 50/50 or close to it. What's more, the assessed value of existing infrastructure can be used as part of the local contribution. St. Louis did it with the Eads Bridge and its tunnel approach. We can do it with our unused subway tunnel or existing Ohio River bridges
3. State grants. Cities in states sympathetic to their cause often have part of their local match paid for by the state DOT.

What was the MetroMoves plan?
1. Construction of a "trunk" light rail line between Downtown and Xavier University on Gilbert Ave. and Montgomery Rd.
2. Construction of a line from Xavier University to Blue Ash on the existing but lightly used CL&N line that travels through Norwood, Pleasant Ridge, and Silverton. Freight railroad operations would be limited to the overnight hours.
3. Construction of a line in place of the Wasson Rd. Railroad connecting Xavier and the eastern neighborhoods of Fairfax, Mariemont, etc. through Hyde Park.
4. Construction of a light rail line heading north from Xavier to I-75 near Towne St., then parallel to I-75 north to the Tri-County area.
5. Construction of a light rail line in the I-74 median between Northside and Rybolt Rd. in Dent. Line woudl approach Downtown Cincinnati via the old subway under Central Parkway.
6. Construction of a light rail line connecting Northside and Xavier University parallel to I-75. This line would only require about four miles of track.
7. Construction of a 3-mile modern streetcar line connecting DT Cincinnati and the "trunk" light rail line at Gilbert & MLK via OTR and Corryville. Cincinnati's under-construction streetcar line is that line.

[kjbrill]

There was a time when the interstate mediums were an ideal location for light rail lines. That is no longer the case. So many of the mediums have been filled in to widen the interstates the space has been exhausted. And in the case of Cincinnati that runs all the way along I-71 and I-75 into Warren and Butler counties. And similar exists for many of the old railroad lines. The one which used to run from Warren County to downtown now has several subdivisions built across what was the ROW. The few trains which serve some businesses in Mason now go north up through Lebanon and then northeast to connect with a main line.

Lines that run parallel to interstates are a particular problem. Just visualize wherever they have to cross an existing interchange, what a mess. Then visualize the existing property in that ROW and the cost of acquisition and demolition - huge.

The Cincinnati streetcar is the most practical approach. Expand it. I can easily visualize streetcars going all the way out to Silverton, Madisonville, etc. Why not, they once did.

Yes, run them on surface streets like Montgomery Rd. But the plan has to include how to reduce traffic on the surface streets as the streetcar system expands. Some tradeoffs need to be made, such as elimination of on street parking to make room for the streetcar tracks, platforms, etc. Many neighborhoods have blighted areas which can be converted to surface lots for off street parking to support the local businesses.

These are not the type of plans I read about - how to reduce vehicular traffic as rail increases.

This is the only reasonable plan. Now somebody needs to make a real evaluation of the situation. This puts them on the spot. If they make a substantial mistake it will be a sore thumb. But if you are a true urban planner this should be what you thrive on. Replace vehicular traffic with rail.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

Whenever you introduce the cost of war into the picture you change everything. But don't forget the Iraq and Afganistan wars have been mortgaged, not pay as we go. Thus the huge increases in Federal Debt. After 9/11 we were going to avenge America and show our resolve to bring American justice there. After 12 years we have avenged virtually nothing, killed thousands of our young people, and have not made a dent in the daily lives of the people in those countries.

I was never in favor of the wars and felt it is their business, if they want to kill each other over religious conflicts let them. Just do what is necessary to keep them out of here. Iran is a bigger threat than it was 12 years ago. There are those who point to the humanitarian side of things and say we can't abandon them. But our efforts have been ineffective. If we look at the continent of Africa far more atrocities have beeen committed against many more millions of people there. The difference is pretty obvious, Africa does not control a lot of oil.

I love how people think without the facts:

- Only 1/5 of the debt since 2000 came from the wars. The rest was spent in a Democrat spree in 2007-8 and the stimulus spending. GAO and OMB figures show this.

- We were not over there for the oil. If we were, why weren't our soldiers guarding it? We never got any oil from either Iraq or Afghanistan.

[Troubleshooter]

The best indication of what light rail ridership will be like can be found in the ridership of the buses that make those trips now. Light rail would replace the buses, not add more trips.

Mass transit does not work in all but the 15 biggest cities in the US. In the other cases, mass transit usually carries fewer than 10 percent of all trips. The following are reasons why more people don't use the transit:

1. The transit does not run near to where the person is.

2. The transit does not run where the person needs to go.

3. The transit does not run in the area yet when the person needs to make the trip.

4. The transit has already quit running when the person needs to return.

5. The person can't bring the freight he needs to move aboard the transit.

6. The transit takes much longer than a trip by car.

7. The transit costs much more than a trip by car.

8. Some people bring strong perfume or other things that make other people sick onto the transit.