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Those who come on here screaming "give me liberty. . . " are like the anti-income tax people. It's decided law.
Comparing immunization laws to the nazis will not do much to advance your case.
Only in a PANDEMIC. It is a Measles Outbreak. There are many Flu Epidemics. PANDEMICS. Government ONLY has that right to force vaccinations in a Pandemic. A couple of hundred cases of Measles in a country of billions is a Pandemic?
Why do you think that the SC ruled the ACA a TAX? They did not want to set precedence that the government is forcing HEALTH CARE Insurance to open the door to forced HEALTH CARE. They certainly don't want to get into medicine conflicting with religious beliefs. Yes, yes, I know about JW children being forced to get blood transfusion, but does that apply to ADULT JW? Absolutely, not.
There was another poll here on CD about forced vaccinations. While 60% said vaccines said were safe and effective, they also said they should not be mandatory. Tell you something there? Majority of Americans understand the concept of FREEDOM.
Only in a PANDEMIC. It is a Measles Outbreak. There are many Flu Epidemics. PANDEMICS. Government ONLY has that right to force vaccinations in a Pandemic. A couple of hundred cases of Measles in a country of billions is a Pandemic?
Why do you think that the SC ruled the ACA a TAX? They did not want to set precedence that the government is forcing HEALTH CARE Insurance to open the door to forced HEALTH CARE. They certainly don't want to get into medicine conflicting with religious beliefs. Yes, yes, I know about JW children being forced to get blood transfusion, but does that apply to ADULT JW? Absolutely, not.
There was another poll here on CD about forced vaccinations. While 60% said vaccines said were safe and effective, they also said they should not be mandatory. Tell you something there? Majority of Americans understand the concept of FREEDOM.
Exactly, Jo. Just over 100 cases of measles (0 deaths) is not a pandemic and does not warrant the type of over reaction that we have been seeing from the extreme pro-vaxxers.. The reaction is way out of proportion to this "outbreak".
Only in a PANDEMIC. It is a Measles Outbreak. There are many Flu Epidemics. PANDEMICS. Government ONLY has that right to force vaccinations in a Pandemic. A couple of hundred cases of Measles in a country of billions is a Pandemic?
Why do you think that the SC ruled the ACA a TAX? They did not want to set precedence that the government is forcing HEALTH CARE Insurance to open the door to forced HEALTH CARE. They certainly don't want to get into medicine conflicting with religious beliefs. Yes, yes, I know about JW children being forced to get blood transfusion, but does that apply to ADULT JW? Absolutely, not.
There was another poll here on CD about forced vaccinations. While 60% said vaccines said were safe and effective, they also said they should not be mandatory. Tell you something there? Majority of Americans understand the concept of FREEDOM.
Jo, Jo, Jo. One of my problems with you is not simply that we disagree on vaccination. Its that much of the information you put out here just isn't accurate.
The Supreme Court has held that vaccination can be mandated by a state even when there is no pandemic. Please read the case of Zucht v King, 260 US 174 (1922). I'll make it easy for you. You can easily read the case on line by simply typing in that citation. The opinion is not long. Justice Brandeis makes it clear that a state, plain and simple, has the right to mandate vaccination and they don't have to wait for a pandemic, an epidemic or a public health crisis first.
Go ahead and continue to oppose vaccination. I know we won't stop you. Have the integrity though to at least state correct facts.
Last edited by markg91359; 02-09-2015 at 11:39 AM..
"The majority of the unvaccinated for whom the state public health agency had detailed information were not vaccinated primarily to 'personal beliefs,' Dr. Gil Chavez, state epidemiologist and deputy director at the Center for Infectious Diseases for the California Department of Public Health, said in an email."
Here is how we see measles in vaccinated persons during an outbreak:
Take 1000 people. Let's say 90% of them take the vaccine: 900 people. That leaves 100 unvaccinated.
The vaccine is 95% effective (it's actually closer to 99% for two doses of vaccine, but let's be conservative). That means 45 vaccinated people (5% of 900) will have the vaccine not work for them.
Expose all 1000 to measles.
Virtually everyone who is susceptible to measles will get it if exposed. Let's use an attack rate of 90%. That means that of the 100 unvaccinated people who are exposed, 90 (90% of 100) will get it and 10 will not. In the group who were vaccinated and the vaccine failed, about 40 will get it and 5 will not. However, we cannot forget the 845 people for whom the vaccine did work. That means that 845 + 5 = 850 vaccinated people did not get measles.
Vaccinated people: 40 out of 900 get measles. Risk is 4.4%.
Unvaccinated people: 90 out of 100 get measles. Risk is 90%.
You are about 20 times more likely to get measles if you are exposed if you are not vaccinated.
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But you've been arguing that there are sooooo many "anti-vaxxers" out there and the vaccination rate is declining, yet nationally there are only c. 40 to 200 cases per year (2014 being the exception). You seem to be missing the bigger picture here: personal liberty and rights and freedoms can be eroded by appeals to the betterment of society (through science). I think if properly informed, the vast majority of people will choose to get vaccinated. But if this becomes forced by the state, then what next, and what next after that?
The courts have upheld mandatory vaccination since the advent of smallpox vaccine. We have not slid down the slippery slope yet. It is well established that vaccine mandates can be used to protect the health of the public.
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They have the freedom to choose not to get vaccinated - that's what America promised them when they had to flee the kind of persecution that we're now starting to see creep into our society. These Amish were probably Beachy or the more liberal ones who are hardly isolated - yet we're supposed to believe that after all these years of not being vaccinated they happened to bring it back from the Philippines?
Well, yes, since they went to the Philippines during a measles outbreak there, were not vaccinated, caught it, came back and gave it to other unvaccinated members of their community. That's a fact. It's what happened. The virus was genetically the same as the one circulating in the Philippines.
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You stated that California has a below average vaccination rate, places that have lower rates "tend to see more measles cases," yet there's no evidence to support that California has been experiencing higher rates of measles cases. And as you have admitted, the outbreak occurred at Disneyland, a tourist destination, a destination that draws huge numbers of out-of-state and international visitors. First you claimed the of course the outbreak happened in California because of its lower vaccination rate, then you changed your tune and said it was a foreigner. All this speculation yet we still really don't know what the source of the outbreak really was, do we?
We do not know who brought the virus to Disney. The fact that the initial case cannot be identified strongly suggests it was a visitor who went home and has not been treated in the US.
The virus is spreading in mainly unvaccinated people, the majority of whom are vaccine refusers. Because Disneyland is in California, many of those affected have been California residents:
No it doesn't. I read it after the fact. Furthermore you don't know what I believe, only what I post here. And I note that you didn't address that.
Now if you wish to actually address what I've posted, then please do so, but I'm guessing that you can't.
I can't help it if you do not want to believe the facts, which are counter to your position, as demonstrated in the material I have referred you to. Illegal immigrants are not the cause of measles outbreaks in the US.
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Anyone who doesn't get their kids vaccinated is irresponsible. Period. There is no scientific or technical reason not to. (of course barring a true specific medical reason as proscribed by MD)
I fully agree. Unfortunately, vaccine refusers are entrenched in their stance and immune to education.
Only in a PANDEMIC. It is a Measles Outbreak. There are many Flu Epidemics. PANDEMICS. Government ONLY has that right to force vaccinations in a Pandemic. A couple of hundred cases of Measles in a country of billions is a Pandemic?
Why do you think that the SC ruled the ACA a TAX? They did not want to set precedence that the government is forcing HEALTH CARE Insurance to open the door to forced HEALTH CARE. They certainly don't want to get into medicine conflicting with religious beliefs. Yes, yes, I know about JW children being forced to get blood transfusion, but does that apply to ADULT JW? Absolutely, not.
There was another poll here on CD about forced vaccinations. While 60% said vaccines said were safe and effective, they also said they should not be mandatory. Tell you something there? Majority of Americans understand the concept of FREEDOM.
No, forced vaccinations were used in an outbreak in Philadelphia in the early 1990s. No pandemic.
Mississippi, a very conservative state, has one of the nation's highest vaccination rates. Berkeley, a very liberal city, has a very high rate of unvaccinated children.
The latest data comes from a survey of 2,316 U.S. adults by a researcher who works at the universities of Yale and Harvard. While questions about human-caused climate change divided along political lines--with liberals believing it is happening and conservatives denying it--there was no such correlation with anti-vaccine views. The vast majority of people believe the benefits of childhood vaccinations outweigh the risks, regardless of their politics. And the survey found anti-vaccine views are more common among Republicans.
"The majority of the unvaccinated for whom the state public health agency had detailed information were not vaccinated primarily to 'personal beliefs,' Dr. Gil Chavez, state epidemiologist and deputy director at the Center for Infectious Diseases for the California Department of Public Health, said in an email."
Here is how we see measles in vaccinated persons during an outbreak:
Take 1000 people. Let's say 90% of them take the vaccine: 900 people. That leaves 100 unvaccinated.
The vaccine is 95% effective (it's actually closer to 99% for two doses of vaccine, but let's be conservative). That means 45 vaccinated people (5% of 900) will have the vaccine not work for them.
Expose all 1000 to measles.
Virtually everyone who is susceptible to measles will get it if exposed. Let's use an attack rate of 90%. That means that of the 100 unvaccinated people who are exposed, 90 (90% of 100) will get it and 10 will not. In the group who were vaccinated and the vaccine failed, about 40 will get it and 5 will not. However, we cannot forget the 845 people for whom the vaccine did work. That means that 845 + 5 = 850 vaccinated people did not get measles.
Vaccinated people: 40 out of 900 get measles. Risk is 4.4%.
Unvaccinated people: 90 out of 100 get measles. Risk is 90%.
You are about 20 times more likely to get measles if you are exposed if you are not vaccinated.
The courts have upheld mandatory vaccination since the advent of smallpox vaccine. We have not slid down the slippery slope yet. It is well established that vaccine mandates can be used to protect the health of the public.
Well, yes, since they went to the Philippines during a measles outbreak there, were not vaccinated, caught it, came back and gave it to other unvaccinated members of their community. That's a fact. It's what happened. The virus was genetically the same as the one circulating in the Philippines.
We do not know who brought the virus to Disney. The fact that the initial case cannot be identified strongly suggests it was a visitor who went home and has not been treated in the US.
The virus is spreading in mainly unvaccinated people, the majority of whom are vaccine refusers. Because Disneyland is in California, many of those affected have been California residents:
I can't help it if you do not want to believe the facts, which are counter to your position, as demonstrated in the material I have referred you to. Illegal immigrants are not the cause of measles outbreaks in the US.
I fully agree. Unfortunately, vaccine refusers are entrenched in their stance and immune to education.
The one approach whch seems to work is showing them that all those around them vaccinate.
The quote that will make you say....I guess polio just went away for no reason at all....
Quote:
she established that there is no scientific evidence that these injections of highly noxious substances prevent diseases, quite to the contrary, that they increase susceptibility to the diseases
The latest data comes from a survey of 2,316 U.S. adults by a researcher who works at the universities of Yale and Harvard. While questions about human-caused climate change divided along political lines--with liberals believing it is happening and conservatives denying it--there was no such correlation with anti-vaccine views. The vast majority of people believe the benefits of childhood vaccinations outweigh the risks, regardless of their politics. And the survey found anti-vaccine views are more common among Republicans.
That has not been my experience. When I worked in the public health clinic in Boulder Colorado, we had a lot of "granola" types who were making up their own schedules. Of course, those totally opposed never even darkened our doors. In the practice where I now work a lot of our patients are conservatives and some of them do the same. It's a non-partisan issue.
That has not been my experience. When I worked in the public health clinic in Boulder Colorado, we had a lot of "granola" types who were making up their own schedules. Of course, those totally opposed never even darkened our doors. In the practice where I now work a lot of our patients are conservatives and some of them do the same. It's a non-partisan issue.
Boulder is very "granola" compared to most of the country so if you're in the Boulder area you'll get disportationately exposed to more of the liberal anti-vaccine views. There's a small partisan divide on vaccines:
65% of Republicans believe vaccines should be required vs 76% of Democrats. Note the "requirements", perhaps there are more Republicans who believe vaccines are worthwhile but the government shouldn't mandate due to political principle rather than any health belief while Democrats are less likely to have that combination of beliefs. It seems like a few Republican political voices have spoken against mandatory vaccinations, while no, or at least no prominent, Democratic political voices have.
Hmm. This graph on the page agrees with you: views on vaccine risk aren't correlated with political views.
Entertainingly, the most liberal respondents were slightly more likely to rank childhood vaccination as more risky than legalized marijuana.
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