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Old 07-31-2015, 06:01 PM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 750,306 times
Reputation: 2377

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Vaccination works. Vaccination does NOT CAUSE AUTISM (boys or girls)- the science is unequivocal. Mandates are legal. Increasing levels of vaccination increases safety by decreasing transmission risk.

Vaccinate your kids or homeschool. This is a huge positive step in improving public health and the nutty views here only show the irrational rigidity of those that replace science with spidey sense and have no ability to accurately assess risk. I am glad few of them actually have kids (according to their posts) as those kids would be denied protection from life threatening diseases due to their parents irrationality.

 
Old 07-31-2015, 06:13 PM
 
8,547 posts, read 5,283,213 times
Reputation: 9120
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
As has been repeatedly pointed out, the problem is that the anti-vax like to associate with the anti-vax, resulting in some schools with extremely low vaccination rates. That situation increases the risk of large outbreaks.
If that's true then you'll still have unvaccinated folks hanging out with other unvaccinated folks in clusters. Instead of being in school they will be at the mall, the movies, the library, the roller rink, the museum, in your kid's summer camp, on your child's soccer team, in your son's after school art class, at your favorite restaurant, at the grocery store, in the waiting room at the doctor and dentist.

Quote:
Of course you disagree. However, it is legal (and Mark has given us the legal viewpoint in his posts here). It is reasonable because after millions of doses have been administered no serious adverse effects of the HPV vaccine have been documented.
Legal does not always mean it's ethical. Serious adverse effects have been reported post HPV vaccine. Just because the industry won't admit it does not make those injuries disappear into thin air.

Quote:
Their "injuries" have been and continue to be investigated. Parents just cannot accept that the mere fact that the "injury" happened after a vaccine was given does not mean that the vaccine caused the "injury". Those parents have not been ignored, any more than reports of intussuception with the first rotavirus vaccine was ignored. The rotavirus vaccine was found to have a serious adverse effect. It was replaced with a better vaccine.
Injuries are real. Parents have been ignored. Intussuception is still a risk factor with the current rotavirus vaccine. Personally I'd choose to risk the diarrhea of rotavirus over the risk of intussuception that comes with the vaccine.

Quote:
You want to "minimize" the risk of getting HPV? Condoms do not protect skin surfaces that can be infected. Pap smears do not prevent HPV infection. Not having sex and always using condoms becomes a problem for those who wish to have children. Much as you might wish it to be true, your children will not always follow your advice about sexual behaviors. Meanwhile, there is a safe and effective vaccine that will prevent infection with the strains of HPV that cause 90% of HPV associated cancers.
I'm not minimizing the risk. There are many strains of HPV, not all are covered with the vaccine. The reason for the vaccine is to prevent cervical cancer and considering the risk of cervical cancer is low with routine pap exams, there is no good reason to force this vaccine on school children. Obviously condoms will not prevent skin to skin exposure to HPV but they do reduce the risk. If you are having sex with someone who you are in an established relationship with and or to procreate then you can get an HPV test beforehand.
Quote:
It is, because there is no reason to doubt the extreme safety of the HPV vaccine.
Plenty of people have doubts.

Quote:
We are talking about vaccines, not other medical treatments, and specifically vaccines for children. Parents who refuse medical care for their children may indeed see their children removed from their care and treated - including chemo for cancers with high cure rates and surgery when the expected outcome is good. We do not allow parents to kill their children by withholding medical care.
We are talking about the freedom to have control over our bodies and what we do with them. My points are relevant to the conversation. Thanks for letting us know how far you'd like to take things in terms of forcing people to do things against their will and for letting us know how much power and control you'd like to hand over the government.

Quote:
But you are also making decisions about the health of your children, who cannot decide for themselves - decisions that have an impact on everyone in the community. Choose not to vaccinate them, if you wish. Just realize that a consequence in California is not being able to send them to public school.
I am making informed decisions that are in the best interest of their health and wellness. You not agreeing does not make you right and me wrong. This discussion goes beyond what is happening in CA.
 
Old 07-31-2015, 06:20 PM
 
8,547 posts, read 5,283,213 times
Reputation: 9120
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne View Post
I know this has been explained in this thread repeatedly. In some areas, there is NOT a high enough level of vaccination. Therein lies the problem.
Forcing those people out of school who are not vaccinated or under vaccinated will not end your interactions with them. You'll still have contact with "those kids" at your local grocery store, library, parks and rec center, neighborhood pool, restaurants, afterschool activities such as sports, art, music, camps, museums, parks, etc. This law is not going to make you safer.
 
Old 07-31-2015, 06:22 PM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 750,306 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
If that's true then you'll still have unvaccinated folks hanging out with other unvaccinated folks in clusters. Instead of being in school they will be at the mall, the movies, the library, the roller rink, the museum, in your kid's summer camp, on your child's soccer team, in your son's after school art class, at your favorite restaurant, at the grocery store, in the waiting room at the doctor and dentist.

Legal does not always mean it's ethical. Serious adverse effects have been reported post HPV vaccine. Just because the industry won't admit it does not make those injuries disappear into thin air.

Injuries are real. Parents have been ignored. Intussuception is still a risk factor with the current rotavirus vaccine. Personally I'd choose to risk the diarrhea of rotavirus over the risk of intussuception that comes with the vaccine.

I'm not minimizing the risk. There are many strains of HPV, not all are covered with the vaccine. The reason for the vaccine is to prevent cervical cancer and considering the risk of cervical cancer is low with routine pap exams, there is no good reason to force this vaccine on school children. Obviously condoms will not prevent skin to skin exposure to HPV but they do reduce the risk. If you are having sex with someone who you are in an established relationship with and or to procreate then you can get an HPV test beforehand.
Plenty of people have doubts.

We are talking about the freedom to have control over our bodies and what we do with them. My points are relevant to the conversation. Thanks for letting us know how far you'd like to take things in terms of forcing people to do things against their will and for letting us know how much power and control you'd like to hand over the government.

I am making informed decisions that are in the best interest of their health and wellness. You not agreeing does not make you right and me wrong. This discussion goes beyond what is happening in CA.
Hopefully similar mandates will apply to organized sports and other activities. A number of doctors are requiring patients to be vaccinated if healthy enough to do so.

You're making up "facts" about hpv vaccines. Fiction.

You have control over your body. As with any choice there are consequences.

You're not making "informed decisions". You're ignoring settled science in favour of your "feelings", that's the antithesis of "informed". It's just plain stupid.
 
Old 07-31-2015, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Marquette, Mich
1,024 posts, read 388,009 times
Reputation: 2333
One thing about the whole "don't want HPV? Don't have unprotected sex!" moralizing -- not all exposure is voluntary.
 
Old 07-31-2015, 06:42 PM
 
8,547 posts, read 5,283,213 times
Reputation: 9120
Quote:
Originally Posted by leebeemi View Post
One thing about the whole "don't want HPV? Don't have unprotected sex!" moralizing -- not all exposure is voluntary.
Get vaccinated if you feel it is worth it. Don't force others to do the same. Telling people not to have sex if they are that terrified of HPV or to reduce their risk by wearing a condom is not moralizing, it's reality. If by saying that not all exposure is voluntary you mean not all sex is voluntary and that some is actually rape, that is very true. However in the instance of rape, HPV would be the least of a victim's concerns.

Last edited by MissTerri; 07-31-2015 at 06:57 PM..
 
Old 07-31-2015, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,401,265 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by leebeemi View Post
One thing about the whole "don't want HPV? Don't have unprotected sex!" moralizing -- not all exposure is voluntary.
Yet you agree that exposure doesn't happen in the school environment so why is it mandated for attendance?
 
Old 07-31-2015, 08:05 PM
 
Location: A place that's too cold
4,114 posts, read 4,071,143 times
Reputation: 10143
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Forcing those people out of school who are not vaccinated or under vaccinated will not end your interactions with them. You'll still have contact with "those kids" at your local grocery store, library, parks and rec center, neighborhood pool, restaurants, afterschool activities such as sports, art, music, camps, museums, parks, etc. This law is not going to make you safer.
Some on your list DO require vaccinations, at least in some areas (camps, sports). Others on your list don't involve daily close contact like public school does. At school, kids can be within inches of each other if they are lab partners, are sharing music in school choir, are wrestling in gym class, or just sitting next to each other in the school cafeteria. You tried really hard to come up with a long list of places for possible exposure, but children aren't normally within inches of each other at a restaurant, grocery store, library, etc., and certainly not for prolonged periods of time 5 days a week.
 
Old 07-31-2015, 08:09 PM
 
8,547 posts, read 5,283,213 times
Reputation: 9120
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne View Post
Some on your list DO require vaccinations, at least in some areas (camps, sports). Others on your list don't involve daily close contact like public school does. At school, kids can be within inches of each other if they are lab partners, are sharing music in school choir, are wrestling in gym class, or just sitting next to each other in the school cafeteria. You tried really hard to come up with a long list of places for possible exposure, but children aren't normally within inches of each other at a restaurant, grocery store, library, etc., and certainly not for prolonged periods of time 5 days a week.
Not many recreational sports require vaccinations. My kids have played plenty and that has never been even so much as a question. Some camps might, like overnight camps but certainly not all of them.
 
Old 07-31-2015, 08:35 PM
 
8,334 posts, read 8,615,198 times
Reputation: 26050
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Get vaccinated if you feel it is worth it. Don't force others to do the same. Telling people not to have sex if they are that terrified of HPV or to reduce their risk by wearing a condom is not moralizing, it's reality. If by saying that not all exposure is voluntary you mean not all sex is voluntary and that some is actually rape, that is very true. However in the instance of rape, HPV would be the least of a victim's concerns.
More importantly, telling kids not to have sex--or abstinence programs-- doesn't work. The study referenced in this article showed that such programs had no affect on the frequency that teens either had sex or had sex wearing a condom.

https://www.gse.upenn.edu/node/477

I'm going through the process of parenting a teenage daughter right now. Sometimes, you can talk, reason, threaten, and yell until you are blue (or even purple) and your kids still aren't going to listen to you. Once children are older than about twelve, you can't control everything they do even if you think you can. The parents that I worry the most about are those who believe they are in complete control after that age.

The HPV vaccine is a welcome addition. Parents should want their children to get all the protection that they can get.

I would support making it a mandatory vaccine. I also realize given some attitudes about sex and abstinence that some people will continue to oppose this and it probably won't happen. The price will be unnecessary deaths from cervical cancer. Think about that: Is "discouraging immorality" worth hundreds of lives every year?

Last edited by markg91359; 07-31-2015 at 08:48 PM..
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