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You said I only provided anecdotal whatever. No, I also provided scientific studies, and there are more that could be listed. My point was, eating 150 grams of fruit or other carbs a day would be beneficial. I posted in general, not to persuade you personally. Dr Atkins never intended for anyone to stay on very low carb for a long period of time, as I mentioned. I find many people on the low carb forums taking low carb to an extreme that was not recommended by any doctor.
People feel free to advocate extreme carb restriction, others like me feel free to state the opposite. I feel, based on people who have been successful long term on lowcarber.org as well as scientific studies, that relatively low carb is better than extremely low carb. Success means having energy, having a healthy metabolism, having a body temp over 98 degrees. I lost weight on very low carb, but had no energy. If you are happy, wonderful. If there is any bias in the low carb forums, it is in favor of low carb, so it is not logical to dismiss actual results there out of hand.
Take anyone low carbing (very low carb, as opposed to reasonable low carb) over time, and their metabolism is low, even when they are trying to compensate by taking thyroid meds. There are negative health consequences from having a low metabolism.
time to go to work, have a nice day!
Did you read his book? Because I did. I was introduced to the low carb diet back in the 90s before it was the fad. In fact, back then, it was when everyone was snickering and mocking Dr. Atkins. But my co-worker at the bar was thin, healthy, and I thought, "why not?" I had 20 pounds to lose, let's go for it.
I didn't have all the stuff available like most do today, so I had to work even harder at it. It was all raw, all the time, (meaning not in a package, or seasoned, or processed).
In extremely short order, I lost 30 pounds, 10 pounds more than my goal. I read the book before I did anything. I had a TON of energy, probably more energy that I have had in my life. In fact, I know it is true because looking back on my Economics note book from high school, every single day I wrote in it to my friend how so very tired I was - and we didn't get junk food or sweets, we ate what people consider as "very healthy". When I did that low carb diet, I had enough energy to take on four jobs at once...because I had THAT much energy.
His recommendation was never to go over 60 grams a day after that. That's not a lot of carbs when you start reading labels and making comparisons. You can fill that up in a single pop or glass or orange juice (or two). So yes, he most certainly DID intend for people to keep their carbs down for the rest of their lives.
Low carb works. Everyone who pretends that it doesn't, hasn't a clue what they're talking about. Not only does it work, it's extremely easy to make it a lifestyle change. My experience trumps what anyone on here tries to tell me. I did it, it worked, I had a lot of energy, and any time in my life that I have gone over 60 a day, guess what, I start gaining weight. When I restrict it back to 60 a day, I maintain, and I have a lot more energy than any other style of eating.
The PDFs that open are copy protected. If you can't find them online or don't have PubMed/Medline access, I guess you'll just have to take my word for it.
Won't open? It isn't there, the first one. Why was it removed?
That said, I'll quote this section from The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald. Both those studies (and others) are cited within this section.
"So while T3 does go down on a ketogenic diet, this does not appear to be the reason for a
decrease in metabolic rate."
"As with other hormones in the body (for example insulin), the decrease in circulating T3
levels may be compensated for by an increase in receptor activity and/or number (1). This has
been shown to occur in mononuclear blood cells but has not been studied in human muscle or fat
cells (53). So while T3 does go down on a ketogenic diet, this does not appear to be the reason for a
decrease in metabolic rate."
Note the word "appear". Based on a study of blood cells only.
I don't care about correlation, I care about causation. Can you cite any studies showing this causation?
"studies that correlate low body temperature to low T3. " Everyone agrees low body temperature, low T3, including Dr. Rosedale. Do the web search.
Citing my body temperature would be irrelevant since the assertion you've made is incorrect. The link doesn't exist. Also, it would be further pointless since I'm not currently dieting, and body temperature measurements for the sake of metabolic assessment are best done first thing in the morning.
The link does exist. Especially if you are not currently dieting. Body temperature both in the morning, and during the day are relevant. Typically vary about 0.5 degrees. You never check your temperature? It doesn't have to be from today
McDonald is rationalizing the lowering of T3 as protein sparing, which is speculation. And even then it only applies to a ketogenic diet that has low protein, which is not the normal low carb diet. Dr. Rosedale does state temperature and T3 drop on a ketogenic diet. That should not be disputed.
A good rebuttal to the very low carb diet: Low Carb High Fat Diets and the Thyroid - Perfect Health Diet | Perfect Health Diet
Many studies listed as references at the end.
Edit to add - low T3 (and the corresponding low body temperature) is not good, whatever ketogenic advocates want to rationalize - T3 being far more active than T4.
Last edited by Graywhiskers; 10-08-2015 at 09:17 PM..
Did you read his book? Because I did. I was introduced to the low carb diet back in the 90s before it was the fad. In fact, back then, it was when everyone was snickering and mocking Dr. Atkins. But my co-worker at the bar was thin, healthy, and I thought, "why not?" I had 20 pounds to lose, let's go for it.
I didn't have all the stuff available like most do today, so I had to work even harder at it. It was all raw, all the time, (meaning not in a package, or seasoned, or processed).
In extremely short order, I lost 30 pounds, 10 pounds more than my goal. I read the book before I did anything. I had a TON of energy, probably more energy that I have had in my life. In fact, I know it is true because looking back on my Economics note book from high school, every single day I wrote in it to my friend how so very tired I was - and we didn't get junk food or sweets, we ate what people consider as "very healthy". When I did that low carb diet, I had enough energy to take on four jobs at once...because I had THAT much energy.
His recommendation was never to go over 60 grams a day after that. That's not a lot of carbs when you start reading labels and making comparisons. You can fill that up in a single pop or glass or orange juice (or two). So yes, he most certainly DID intend for people to keep their carbs down for the rest of their lives.
Low carb works. Everyone who pretends that it doesn't, hasn't a clue what they're talking about. Not only does it work, it's extremely easy to make it a lifestyle change. My experience trumps what anyone on here tries to tell me. I did it, it worked, I had a lot of energy, and any time in my life that I have gone over 60 a day, guess what, I start gaining weight. When I restrict it back to 60 a day, I maintain, and I have a lot more energy than any other style of eating.
Hi,
Yes I read his books. His later recommendations were to use the "carb ladder", and to count net carbs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkins_diet
Notice in the trial that people following the Atkins diet ended up at 190 grams of carbs per day. The carbs would range from low to somewhat high based on the individuals metabolism.
I agree low carb is easy to apply.
Dr. Rosedale does state temperature and T3 drop on a ketogenic diet. That should not be disputed.
Not only do you not understand metabolism, you clearly have no reading comprehension skills. When you change that, I might consider engaging you in conversation again.
Until then, I'm just going to sit here and laugh at you.
PHEW 11 pages of this in just a few days. I do not have time to read it all. Will throw in my 2 cents. I have been low carb. 20 carbs and under since November 22, 2014. I went very low carb in May of 2015 at 5 carbs and below. I am feeling wonderful with so much energy. I am 66 and laid a 6 by 4 + paver landing at the bottom of our steps. I had to rip out the old one and re-do it due to a ditch settled under it. I did all of that yesterday. and still had to do all chores around our house because my hubby is ill and on chemo.
I have lost 54 pounds. My doctor is thrilled with my progress and blood work. I still have 36 pounds to go and I am going to stick with Low Carb all the way. It is the one way for me to lose weight and keep it off.
I did Atkins 72 back in 1972 and stayed on it for over 15 years. I was healthy and strong and felt wonderful. Then I screwed up and let myself go back to eating sandwiches then cookies and cakes and I honestly was screwed. My carb addiction took over and it was all down hill. I gained about 70 pounds on top of the slow age creep of 20 pounds.
I have nothing to back this up. I believe LC is sustainable for any one that wants to lose weight and keep it off. I learned my lesson. I am too old to go through this relapse again. When I get to goal I might add back some low glycemic vegetables but I do not want those carb cravings to take over again.
Night folks. Chris
Editing to add since I do see mention of T3 and T4. Again not reading it all I need to get to bed. I am on Thyroid and have been since before I was even low carb. I do do better on Armour Thyroid or NP Thyroid,generic version of Armour. The synthetics Levothyroxine and Synthroid,same thing different name, do not work for me because I would need to take the Cytomil(spelling?) to get the T3 or T4 I needed. I do not take my temp. It has always been normal on the few occasions I did take it because I wondered if I was sick.
Hi,
Yes I read his books. His later recommendations were to use the "carb ladder", and to count net carbs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkins_diet
Notice in the trial that people following the Atkins diet ended up at 190 grams of carbs per day. The carbs would range from low to somewhat high based on the individuals metabolism.
I agree low carb is easy to apply.
OH GRRR I do not want to get into this. BUT His later books are crap. The best version of Atkins was the 1972 version. After that and especially after he died all they did was convert to make money off of selling CRAPPY product to people to make them think they were doing Atkins. Almost like big pharma keeping people sick to sell their drugs. Let the people think they are doing Atkins and they might lose a little weight at first because before they started doing their version, the newer versions of Atkins, they were eating easily 5 times the carbs they should have been eating. So any reduction helped them to lose some weight. But to eat those carb filled bars and SCREW net carbs. A carb is a carb. You can not excuse it being a carb just because it has some fiber in it. Hell I will pour half a cup of ground flax seed in a bowl of ice cream and will it be ok to eat because of the fiber in the flax? I think not.
For sure I am out of here. Good night. May we all wake up slender in the morning.
Hi,
Yes I read his books. His later recommendations were to use the "carb ladder", and to count net carbs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkins_diet
Notice in the trial that people following the Atkins diet ended up at 190 grams of carbs per day. The carbs would range from low to somewhat high based on the individuals metabolism.
I agree low carb is easy to apply.
I followed someone on YouTube for awhile. I was simply curious how her diet was going to work. She's from the UK, she was VERY heavy, and she decided to take on the juicing diet thing. I even joined her facebook page to get ideas for more interesting ways to eat vegetables, (because I hate vegetables, but you have to eat them), from her followers. What happened was that I ran in to those militant, hateful people who accuse all meat eaters of being evil demons. That's why I stopped following the lady from the UK. Not because of her, but because of her crazy followers.
About two months ago, I decided to look her up again on YouTube just to see how she was doing. Mind you, she's been at this for two years - her juicing thing. She juices a LOT of fruits. A LOT. Fruits that are sweet have a lot of carbs. She hasn't changed much at all. She did lose weight initially, I mean, you can't help but lose weight when you're that big and you stop eating out at restaurants all the time, and you start exercising. She did lose weight just by changing what she ate, and going for walks and hiking, but the fact is, she hasn't changed much in over a year after her initial big loss. She's still large, she's still at an unhealthy weight. She juices, and I'm not saying that juicing is good or bad, what I'm saying is that she relies heavily on juicing of fruits to fill her up each day. She's still consuming way too many carbs.
As another poster stated, a carb is a carb. That whole deal of: "Well, if you subtract the fiber content of the carb, then this is the amount you're really eating" doesn't actually work. A carb is a carb. Fruits are healthier than pizza, of course, but if you're trying to lose weight, you have to be very careful of what type of fruit you eat and how much because, again, a carb is a carb.
Not only do you not understand metabolism, you clearly have no reading comprehension skills. When you change that, I might consider engaging you in conversation again.
Until then, I'm just going to sit here and laugh at you.
Laughing right back Einstein. You never provided any wording from any study backing your contention low T3 occurred with normal body temperature.
I followed someone on YouTube for awhile. I was simply curious how her diet was going to work. She's from the UK, she was VERY heavy, and she decided to take on the juicing diet thing. I even joined her facebook page to get ideas for more interesting ways to eat vegetables, (because I hate vegetables, but you have to eat them), from her followers. What happened was that I ran in to those militant, hateful people who accuse all meat eaters of being evil demons. That's why I stopped following the lady from the UK. Not because of her, but because of her crazy followers.
About two months ago, I decided to look her up again on YouTube just to see how she was doing. Mind you, she's been at this for two years - her juicing thing. She juices a LOT of fruits. A LOT. Fruits that are sweet have a lot of carbs. She hasn't changed much at all. She did lose weight initially, I mean, you can't help but lose weight when you're that big and you stop eating out at restaurants all the time, and you start exercising. She did lose weight just by changing what she ate, and going for walks and hiking, but the fact is, she hasn't changed much in over a year after her initial big loss. She's still large, she's still at an unhealthy weight. She juices, and I'm not saying that juicing is good or bad, what I'm saying is that she relies heavily on juicing of fruits to fill her up each day. She's still consuming way too many carbs.
As another poster stated, a carb is a carb. That whole deal of: "Well, if you subtract the fiber content of the carb, then this is the amount you're really eating" doesn't actually work. A carb is a carb. Fruits are healthier than pizza, of course, but if you're trying to lose weight, you have to be very careful of what type of fruit you eat and how much because, again, a carb is a carb.
People certainly seem to get wound up over their preferred diet, as an example, you mention people hating those who eat meat. My belief is that a wide range of macronutrient ratios can provide good human health (not an original thought, this is from others); unless taken to the point of extremism - very high carb, very high fat, very low carb, very low fat, and so on.
I think the argument for using net carbs, is fiber arrives in the colon undigested, and is not providing any calories to the body. It probably does not make much difference whether this fiber is counted or not.
Did you read his book? Because I did. I was introduced to the low carb diet back in the 90s before it was the fad. In fact, back then, it was when everyone was snickering and mocking Dr. Atkins. But my co-worker at the bar was thin, healthy, and I thought, "why not?" I had 20 pounds to lose, let's go for it.
I didn't have all the stuff available like most do today, so I had to work even harder at it. It was all raw, all the time, (meaning not in a package, or seasoned, or processed).
In extremely short order, I lost 30 pounds, 10 pounds more than my goal. I read the book before I did anything. I had a TON of energy, probably more energy that I have had in my life. In fact, I know it is true because looking back on my Economics note book from high school, every single day I wrote in it to my friend how so very tired I was - and we didn't get junk food or sweets, we ate what people consider as "very healthy". When I did that low carb diet, I had enough energy to take on four jobs at once...because I had THAT much energy.
His recommendation was never to go over 60 grams a day after that. That's not a lot of carbs when you start reading labels and making comparisons. You can fill that up in a single pop or glass or orange juice (or two). So yes, he most certainly DID intend for people to keep their carbs down for the rest of their lives.
Low carb works. Everyone who pretends that it doesn't, hasn't a clue what they're talking about. Not only does it work, it's extremely easy to make it a lifestyle change. My experience trumps what anyone on here tries to tell me. I did it, it worked, I had a lot of energy, and any time in my life that I have gone over 60 a day, guess what, I start gaining weight. When I restrict it back to 60 a day, I maintain, and I have a lot more energy than any other style of eating.
If your weight went back up, it was because you were eating more calories. If you are happy and healthy at 60 g carbs, that is all that matters.
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