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I highly doubt German seniors who rebuilt Germany and contributed so much to the public treasure are so deserving of contempt and despise.
Secondly, of course seniors no longer work, but they are consumers, and spending their money inside Germany is better for Germany than for example spending their money in Romania.
Although seniors use some services more than working adults, they use other services less -- for example, they don't go to school, and neither need much policing.
Most importantly seniors contribute to society something better than anybody else -- wisdom, experience, knowledge.
A society not caring for its seniors deserves to die.
I have never said and I would never claim that older people aren't a great enrichment for the society. Quite the opposite. It would be really sad if hordes of retirees would leave Germany.
But it would make national economically sense. In Germany we already have labor shortages and I don't see how we can provide all the elderly people in the future. The number of people that will need elderly care will rise drastically. At the same time the labor force will decline sharply. Fewer and fewer people have to supply an ever-growing number of non-working people. Of course that will lead to a much lower living standard in Germany. The number of workers that can provide goods and services for the economically active population will decline drastically. Their living standard will be miserably.
Some imaginable solutions:
1. Abandon large parts of manufacturing. But especially in this field Germany has a competitive advantage over many other countries. I doesn't seem advisable to replace manufacturing by elderly care industry.
2. Recruiting million of immigrants to hold the living standard in Germany stable.
3. The shrinking work force has to work much more hours. But that would mean a lower living standard.
4. More retirees could spend their evening of life abroad.
Of course the solution will be a mixture out of the above points. Most likely that the first point will be the dominant one.
Waw...that's quite absurd! Retired people that consume in Germany are extremely important ! It gives job to your youth, even if it is disappearing slowly!
It's not absurd. We already have labor shortages in Germany. We don't need more work. A sharply declining work force will lead to a shrinking output. But at the same time the population isn't shrinking in the same extent. The available goods and services per capita will shrink. It's inevitable. Of course it will mostly be offset by rising imports. But I think that every country should focus on its competitive advantages. Spain is probably a better place for spending the evening of life than Germany. Sunny Spain vs. cloudy and rainy Germany Whereas Germany is probably a better place for manufacturing than Spain.
Lol that is hillarious. Retirement money is calculated based on the fact that it is consumed within the economy that is paying for it. If the money is drawn out of this economy by emigration, this always negative for the economy and there sould not be any bonus on that. Rather should there be a reduction of retirement money because those money is not contributing to the home economy anymore.
Regardless of how senior benefits are financed the living standard will shrink if we don't make foreign people work for us. We don't have a shortage of money in Germany. We can't spend this money in Germany because we will not have enough employable people in the future for making goods and services. Spending the money in Germany would just lead to higher prices. For rising the living standard or holding it at least stable we have to spend the money abroad. We can do that by buying more foreign made goods. Or we can take more vacation abroad or we can spend our evening of life abroad.
Our huge current account surplus is a serious problem for us. We are losing huge amounts of the products and services that we have produced. We just get money in return. The money is useless until we will spend it abroad. The government could air commercials for buying foreign made cars, so we maybe can close some German car factories. It's important for us to reduce the current account surplus. Or we could buy foreign made construction material and hire foreign workers to build new houses in Germany.
The current account surplus of about 250bn Euros is the equivalent of about 1,000,000 single family houses. We basically sacrifice the construction of 1,000,000 new single family houses every year. In terms of figures every household in Germany sacrifice the consumption of goods and services worth of 6,000 Euro every year. We work to make the living of others more cheerful. That's kinda stupid.
Goods and services or fewer working hours make life more cheerful, not money.
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If your theory would be correct, then countries like Thailand where people emigrate to should be ban immigration by rich seniors from western countries. As a fact, instead their economy strongly benefits from every foreign dime spent in those countries.
The situation in Thailand was and still is completely different. Thailand has a negative international investment position. It would be even worse without all the tourists and wealthy retirees. They need the money for buying foreign made goods and services.
Not only constant current account deficits are bad, constant current account surplusses are also bad.
Indeed. But the biggest difference is that the senior citizen built up our country after the war, paid into the retirement fund for 40 or more years, paid for todays generation education. They have any right to have a decent life while receiving an acceptable amount of retirement money.
Of course they have any rights to have a decent life. That's the reason why it's better for them to emigrate to countries that don't have a labor shortage. It's kinda absurd to think that in the future Germany will be able to offer them a high standard of living. It's not the money that matters, but the amount of available goods and services within a country.
The living standard of a country is chiefly determined by the relation of the working population to the non working population. At the moment the baby boomers are still in the work force. But that will change in the coming years. At the moment we are in our golden age. But that will change drastically in just a few years. We will lose hundreds of thousands employees every year. The labor shortage will become horrible. Factories will close, because they can't find enough workers. But routes wil ceased because of a lack of bus driver. Restaurants will close because of a lack of waiters. Houses will decay because of a lack of construction workers.
Germany will become an economy of scarcity. The prices for everything will explode. Because too much money but far to few workers. The money has to be spend abroad.
I thought it was a troll, unworthy of response. There's no way Lukas can be serious with that post.
The problem is that you don't understand the significance of constant current account surplusses and the problems Germans has to face because of its changing demography.
Because in Germany there are many people like lukas who love arab immigrants but hate germans, especially retirees who obviously are/were all nazis.
Stupid comment.
Immigration to Germany is one potential solution to avoid a collapsing living standard. Immigrants that aren't assimilable are economically completely useless.
I have a novel idea. Perhaps Germany should give their surplus to the Mediterranean countries that took it on the chin for the creation of the euro and after that, pay back the NATO countries that contributed to German defense while Germany itself spent a paltry 1% of GDP on defense.
Of course they have any rights to have a decent life. That's the reason why it's better for them to emigrate to countries that don't have a labor shortage. It's kinda absurd to think that in the future Germany will be able to offer them a high standard of living. It's not the money that matters, but the amount of available goods and services within a country.
The living standard of a country is chiefly determined by the relation of the working population to the non working population. At the moment the baby boomers are still in the work force. But that will change in the coming years. At the moment we are in our golden age. But that will change drastically in just a few years. We will lose hundreds of thousands employees every year. The labor shortage will become horrible. Factories will close, because they can't find enough workers. But routes wil ceased because of a lack of bus driver. Restaurants will close because of a lack of waiters. Houses will decay because of a lack of construction workers.
Germany will become an economy of scarcity. The prices for everything will explode. Because too much money but far to few workers. The money has to be spend abroad.
Why do you think that if I had more money, I would not spend it within Germany? For better cars, bigger houses, etc? Why do I have to go to other countries to spend my money? We do not have any shortage in goods or services. If there would be higher demand for certain goods, our productivities would allow to produce more. We do not need more people, simply because there are many many things that could be done automatcially without worker. I think the whole world would be better off, if they had the demographic development of German instead of population explosions i countries where people get 8 children even though they cannot feed 2. 2-3 bn people in the world would be perfectly fine. Technology allows us to produce enough for everyone.
Fox tirade, tiresome. Americans said the same about every ethnic group that arrived in droves, including pilgrims that were a bunch of zealots and perverts expelled from Europe, just like Trump's father. I find Trump funny, but to take him seriously denotes the IQ of an o'possum.
3 big differences:
1- There was no welfare in the past to attract migrants. They came to work. Now there is a fat one. Immigrants use social services a lot more than Americans.
2 -America has never had uninterrupted, unchecked immigration, without periods of pause to allow assimilation. Nowadays, assimilation is a bad term. Immigration does not stop, and most migrants no longer assimilate.
3- Immigrants came to America from societies that were more advanced than those in America. Now, most immigrants to America come from the worst, backward, primitive, most corrupt societies in the planet.
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Originally Posted by lukas1973
I have never said and I would never claim that older people aren't a great enrichment for the society. Quite the opposite. It would be really sad if hordes of retirees would leave Germany.
But it would make national economically sense. In Germany we already have labor shortages and I don't see how we can provide all the elderly people in the future. The number of people that will need elderly care will rise drastically. At the same time the labor force will decline sharply. Fewer and fewer people have to supply an ever-growing number of non-working people. Of course that will lead to a much lower living standard in Germany. The number of workers that can provide goods and services for the economically active population will decline drastically. Their living standard will be miserably.
Very true. We've been saying this in this forum for a long time. Some posters never accepted this.
I think it will actually get worse when the other shoe will drop -- US at one point will no longer provide national defense to Europe, and countries like Germany will need to defend themselves --military spending. And Germany will not have two pennies to rub together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukas1973
Some imaginable solutions:
1. Abandon large parts of manufacturing. But especially in this field Germany has a competitive advantage over many other countries. I doesn't seem advisable to replace manufacturing by elderly care industry.
2. Recruiting million of immigrants to hold the living standard in Germany stable.
3. The shrinking work force has to work much more hours. But that would mean a lower living standard.
4. More retirees could spend their evening of life abroad.
Of course the solution will be a mixture out of the above points. Most likely that the first point will be the dominant one.
There is only solution to Germany's death spiral -- Capitalism, eradication of socialists / Socialism who are assassinating Germany. And it has to be comprehensive -- economic, political, ideological, etc.
Capitalism, aka. economic growth will improve fertility rate. It always has.
Migrants do not work, yet they multiply rapidly. 2nd generation actually is becoming radicalized, which is double-bad.
As long as Germany is worried about PC and toes the lines of Socialists, Germany will be circling the drain.
economic growth will improve fertility rate. It always has.
I most often think that it is too late for this solution among the "indigenous" population in the countries of early industrialization, sterilized by its own wealth.
Care to outline any scenarios as to why it may not be too late?
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Whereas Germany is probably a better place for manufacturing than Spain.
