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When has the Philadelphia dialect ever been described as having a "distinctly southern character?" Given that hundreds of thousands of working-class white Baltimoreans have roots in the American South (which is not the case in Philadelphia), why would that come as a surprise to you?
Does it really matter who said what about what accent? The Philadelphia and Baltimore accents are practically the same thing. That is an undeniable fact confirmed by professional linguists, and anyone who lives in the region can easily see this. You are still throwing pebbles rather than addressing why Maryland and Delaware are the northeast in indicators of culture, politics, and economics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us
It doesn't matter because in the end Maryland and Delaware are not northeastern states -- changes in economics, religion, language, ancestry etc do NOT matter.
At least your argument can hold water.
If we are looking at economics, language, religion, ancestry, and politics, Maryland and Delaware are clearly part of the northeast, just like Pennsylvania is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
By religion? By Catholic %, lower than every Northeastern state except the mainly rural Vermont and Maine. Higher than the south, but fits with the north outside of the Northeast and west (at least when excluding hispanics):
Linguistics? Accent is mainly general American (few obvious regional characteristics), with a hint of a southern sound in parts and maybe a hint of a northern sound in others. Politics? The federal government influence makes it more Democratic than it would be otherwise, though likely it would still be more of a blue state than further south. Economics? Yes, Maryland is wealthier than most of the south
Thank you.
So in other words, no you can't put it with the southeast when it comes to these factors. Maryland lines up more with Pennsylvania, South Jersey and NY outside of NYC and the rest of the lower northeast. One more thing I would add is that when it comes to economics it's not just wealth, but the type of industry that is present in the northeast corridor, as well as the effect of rust belt economics.
We could also go on with population density, education (high school graduation, college attainment), Lacrosse & Hockey, urbanization, etc...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Katiana, stop being a hater with your anecdotal evidence that means nothing. FWIW, I heard a southern accent on a ski trip to Vermont once? Does that mean it's southern? No. Maryland is indisputably part of the Northeast. And that's the reason why nobody ever disputes it being part of the Northeast.
I hope we can continue to have a mature conversation relying on facts rather than poking fun at those who have different perspectives when we are unable to adequately counter their points.
a) religion
b) linguistics
c) politics
d) ancestry (half a point here)
e) economics
Northern Traits:
Religion
Linguistics
Politics
Economics
Ancestry
History
Southern Traits:
Ancestry
History
@ Katiana - definitely fair points. But when we take all the points as the whole both MD and DE are the northeast. Even where you say that there are similarities with the Midwest - we can say the exact same things about Pennsylvania and rest of NY. It becomes straw man's argument if we aren't looking at the big picture. One thing is for sure - having these traits in common with other northern states in the Midwest certainly aren't traits of a southeastern state. It would be one thing if Maryland had a point here and there in common with the northeast, but it seems to be the majority of things are in common with the northeast or even other northern states in the midwest, and only a handful of points are more in common with the southeastern states like NC or SC. Virginia has a few things in common with the northeast (mostly in NOVA) and almost everything else in common with the south - Maryland is the opposite. It has a few things (according to facts and statistics) in common with the southeast, and mostly everything else in common with states like PA, NJ and NY.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
I'm not sure if you can cherrypick parts of states like that.
We have to. Most of PA is not Philadelphia and is extremely unique among the northeast. According to much of the criteria PA outside outside of the corner Philly is in would be a Midwestern state. But we call it northeastern I suppose because it is the cultural norm to do so. Upstate NY is also very different from NYC. They might as well be totally different states. South Jersey is a different world from the NYC metro New Jersey as well. If it was it's own state this area would line up with MD/DE according to the most important criteria (culture, language, politics, etc). In MD/DE we can say the same thing about Delmarva which is wildly different from the rest of the two states where the great majority of the population lives. State lines have nothing to do with cultural/economic/realities. Pittsburgh
So in other words, no you can't put it with the southeast when it comes to these factors. Maryland lines up more with Pennsylvania, South Jersey and NY outside of NYC and the rest of the lower northeast. One more thing I would add is that when it comes to economics it's not just wealth, but the type of industry that is present in the northeast corridor, as well as the effect of rust belt economics.
I'm not sure if you can cherrypick parts of states like that. I think you can equally say that you can't put Maryland in the Northeast as you can say you can't place Maryland in the Southeast.
I know you weren't serious there, but what was that trying to imply? Is Bowie town center known for anything? I've visited there before briefly, a good friend of my dad's lives there. Don't remember seeing much besides large-ish suburban houses, there was an old part but it looked small and not that compact, as I assumed it was mostly rural years ago.
The statement was made in jest. It was MDAllStar who used to always talk about the "fast-paced lifestyle" of the DMV (he coincidentally enough doesn't consider DC/MD to be "northeastern").
I personally don't consider the "fast-paced life" to be a big thing about the Northeast. I've only visited cities like Albany and Rochester briefly, and I didn't find much to be "fast" about them. I guess you could say they were faster than similarly sized southern metros like Winston-Salem, but I'm not even sure if I'd say that. Those cities are denser, yes, but I never got that sense that life was speedier or more hurried there than elsewhere.
Does it really matter who said what about what accent? The Philadelphia and Baltimore accents are practically the same thing.
Yes, except for the "distinctly southern character" part. Philadelphia never had a huge influx of white southerners. That's why the accents don't quite sound the same despite similarities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj
It would be one thing if Maryland had a point here and there in common with the northeast, but it seems to be the majority of things are in common with the northeast or even other northern states in the midwest, and only a handful of points are more in common with the southeastern states like NC or SC.
Maryland already had many similarities to other northeastern states when it was unquestionably southern. Baltimore had as many rowhouses in 1950 as it does in 2014 (probably more then actually). It was still southern. Baltimore was dense back in 1950. It was still southern. Baltimore had heavy industry. It was still southern. Clearly, none of those things were sufficient to make the state northeastern. If they were, then Maryland would have been universally recognized as a northeastern state from 1865 onward.
The two biggest things that have changed since 1950 are public transit and transplants. So the question is whether those things are sufficient to transform a state into the "Northeast." My answer to that is "No." There are historical differences between Maryland and northeastern states that resulted in demographic and cultural differences that are still palpable today. Those differences can't simply be waved away with a magic wand.
The statement was made in jest. It was MDAllStar who used to always talk about the "fast-paced lifestyle" of the DMV (he coincidentally enough doesn't consider DC/MD to be "northeastern").
I personally don't consider the "fast-paced life" to be a big thing about the Northeast. I've only visited cities like Albany and Rochester briefly, and I didn't find much to be "fast" about them. I guess you could say they were faster than similarly sized southern metros like Winston-Salem, but I'm not even sure if I'd say that. Those cities are denser, yes, but I never got that sense that life was speedier or more hurried there than elsewhere.
We lived in Albany for a while. Not much difference, lifestyle-wise, than Denver. Maybe a few more church-goers in Albany. I don't know which city this says more about, Albany or Denver.
see page 2 (not adjusted for inflation, obviously). It was lower in 1929 than Massachusetts, but still about the same as Pennsylvania and much higher than any other southern state. But it was still usually or always considered southern back then.
We lived in Albany for a while. Not much difference, lifestyle-wise, than Denver. Maybe a few more church-goers in Albany. I don't know which city this says more about, Albany or Denver.
But you can find a lot of broad similarites across the country in life-style. Or were there cities that seemed more distinct to you from the Denver area?
We have to. Most of PA is not Philadelphia and is extremely unique among the northeast. According to much of the criteria PA outside outside of the corner Philly is in would be a Midwestern state. But we call it northeastern I suppose because it is the cultural norm to do so.
First, most people in the state of Pennsylvania live in the eastern part of the state. The Philadelphia MSA (city and PA counties) and the Lehigh Valley alone account for nearly 50% of the state's population.
Second, the trends you see in the Coastal Northeast (high Italian/Irish %, industrial/manufacturing history) also apply to the Interior Northeast, only to a lesser degree. As the Reading and Pennsylvania Railroads pushed east, a lot of the smaller towns in Pennsylvania developed sizable European immigrant populations too.
The big coastal cities are just the strongholds for these populations (and that's really what you would compare Baltimore and DC to since they are technically "coastal"). But the Interior Northeast also stands out in this regard.
But you can find a lot of broad similarites across the country in life-style. Or were there cities that seemed more distinct to you from the Denver area?
I think the relevant part of your post is the first sentence. "Eat, work, sleep". What else do most people do most of the time?
I once read an article in the American Journal of Public Health that looked at how people in different age groups spent their leisure time. While the young people said they spent their leisure time doing more active pursuits, when they kept logs, they did much of the same as the elderly, e.g. read a book, take a nap, watch TV, etc. Now that is different ages, not different parts of the country. If you asked young people here what they do, they'd say "climb mountains, go camping, fishing, skiing" (depending on the season). Actually, people in Albany would probably say similar. But they'd probably really be watching TV, reading, etc.
The statement was made in jest. It was MDAllStar who used to always talk about the "fast-paced lifestyle" of the DMV (he coincidentally enough doesn't consider DC/MD to be "northeastern").
I personally don't consider the "fast-paced life" to be a big thing about the Northeast. I've only visited cities like Albany and Rochester briefly, and I didn't find much to be "fast" about them. I guess you could say they were faster than similarly sized southern metros like Winston-Salem, but I'm not even sure if I'd say that. Those cities are denser, yes, but I never got that sense that life was speedier or more hurried there than elsewhere.
You have to be closer to the BOS-Wash cooridor to get that fast pace. Upstate New York is more like Northern New England in its Eastern half and the Midwest in its western Half. You have to get within 100 miles or so of NYC to start feeling the pace picking up.
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