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Old 08-21-2014, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Why is that in Dr. Shelton Reed's UNC Focus Study (A study that BajanYankee has cited many times earlier), a minority of Marylanders identified as southern, while 80+ percent from southern states claim they are?
You make it seem as if this "minority" is five percent. 40% of Marylanders said they lived in the South. The corollary to that is not that 60% of Marylanders believe they live in the Northeast. In fact, when people were specifically asked this question in the Baltimore forum ("Is Baltimore a northeastern city?") a majority of respondents said "No."

Is Baltimore an Northeastern city?

If the case was so clear that it was a "northeastern" city, then the results of that poll (of Baltimoreans) would look quite different, wouldn't it? You also wouldn't have the occasional article popping up in the Baltimore Sun addressing the city's regional identity. When was the last time the Philadelphia Inquirer ran an article on whether Philly was a northern or southern city? (Spoiler: They don't run articles because the question is silly).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Is MD or DE the northeast like Massachussetts or New Hampshire? No. But most people consider it the northeast, for better or worse.
Yes, except for a majority of respondents in the Baltimore forum and several of the posters in this thread (me, JerseyGirl, eschaton, Duderino, nephi2145, nei, King of Kensington, etc). But that doesn't matter to you because you'll dismiss all of that as irrelevant. The only opinions that matter are yours and cpterp's (and you guys don't even live in the Northeast).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Sure. But is York, PA very Italian or Irish? No. Less though than many places in Maryland I would wager. But that doesn't make it the south. What about Vermont and Maine? They have French Canadian minorities but New Jersey doesn't - does this exclude New Jersey from being the "true" northeast? I would say no. These minority groups are unique and help define different areas within the northeast, but it isn't as if they are universally present in any significance in northeastern towns and it isn't as if they are evenly distributed. For example, there just aren't that many Puerto Ricans in New Hampshire, but this doesn't make New Hampshire less northeastern than Philadelphia.
There also aren't that many Blacks in parts of Georgia, Alabama and South Carolina. But that's not the point. The point is that as a general matter, a high Black % (particularly on a state wide level) is a distinctively southern characteristic. Likewise, a high Italian/Irish % is a distinctively northeastern characteristic. That doesn't mean that every single place, every single town, every single neighborhood and every single person has to have that background. It just means that those groups play a large role in defining the character of much of the region (especially the cities, where the vast majority of people in the NE live).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
The game changing evidence is that Maryland lines up beautifully with the northeast when it comes to these factors.
Right.

I think Duderino said it best as far as there being a lot of cultural nuance that's not captured by simply asking "Does the state vote for Democrats?" or "Is the median income ____?" I'm not sure what income has to do with culture anyway. At the end of the day, I see a lot of commonalities among most northeastern states/metros that are largely unique to the Northeast. I mean, there are a lot of places that are liberal (SF, Seattle, Miami, etc.). There are a lot of places that have rail transit (which MD didn't even have until 1983...the DC Metro was completed around the same time as MARTA in Atlanta). But the demographics of the Northeast are largely distinct to this region. And Maryland doesn't fit into that at all.

Trying to compare Maryland to an outlier of the Northeast like Maine or Vermont is silly. Those states are outliers, but cannot be anything else but Northeastern by default.

Last edited by BajanYankee; 08-21-2014 at 01:42 PM.. Reason: Typos
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
As it does in Pennsylvania - especially the Philadelphia area and places like Ohio, Illinois, Iowa. In fact there are recent articles featuring linguistics expert William Labov discussing the change of the Philly accent. It is undeniable that the Philly and Baltimore accents are part and parcel.
When has the Philadelphia dialect ever been described as having a "distinctly southern character?" Given that hundreds of thousands of working-class white Baltimoreans have roots in the American South (which is not the case in Philadelphia), why would that come as a surprise to you?
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,264,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
You make it seem as if this "minority" is five percent. 40% of Marylanders said they lived in the South. The corollary to that is not that 60% of Marylanders believe they live in the Northeast. In fact, when people were specifically asked this question in the Baltimore forum ("Is Baltimore a northeastern city?") a majority of respondents said "No."

Is Baltimore an Northeastern city?

If the case was so clear that it was a "northeastern" city, then the results of that poll (of Baltimoreans) would look quite different, wouldn't it? You also wouldn't have articles in the occasional article popping up in the Baltimore sun addressing the city's regional identity. When was the last time the Philadelphia Inquirer ran an article on whether Philly was a northern or southern city? (Spoiler: They don't run articles because the question is silly).

Yes, except for a majority of respondents in the Baltimore forum and several of the posters in this thread (me, JerseyGirl, eschaton, Duderino, nephi2145, nei, King of Kensington, etc). But that doesn't matter to you because you'll dismiss all of that as irrelevant. The only opinions that matter are yours and cpterp's (and you guys don't even live in the Northeast).
Sorry BajanYankee, I am not going to dismiss cultural, political, and economic realities because a number of people in a City Data thread feel one way. City Data is hardly representative of everyone in the country. It is a select group of people. You found a poll where a slight majority of people (who we aren't even sure of origins or location) that said Baltimore isn't a northern city, but there are numerous threads on the subject and most people say it is northern. Just look up Maryland northern state/southern state and there are many threads. I'm not going to insult your intelligence because intellectually you know this. I've also looked at countless internet polls online and can't find a single one placing Maryland in the southeast. Go ahead, make a poll in the General US forum asking if Maryland is northern or southern - we both know it will be northern. Most people in the US consider it to be that, and while there are arguments that can be made, it just doesn't stack up.

The bottom line is that you or the other proponents still haven't been able to address why Maryland lines up with the northeast according to the following factors:


a) religion
b) linguistics
c) politics
d) ancestry
(half a point here)
e) economics

^
Can you put Maryland in the southeast when it comes to these factors? You've made half an argument for ancestry regarding blacks and immigrant populations, but how come you can't make a decent argument that Maryland is the southeast based on religion, linguistics, politics, and economics? You can't put Maryland in the southeast when it comes to these crucial points. Logically it's a northeastern state. I would love to say "I'm a Southerner" but I can't because it's just not true. Here's the breakdown:

Northern:
Religion
Linguistics
Politics
Economics
Ancestry
History

Southern:
Ancestry
History

Simple as that, it's a northeastern state, just like most people in the US consider it to be. Feel free to make a poll, we both know what the answer will be.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Derby, CT
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It doesn't matter because in the end Maryland and Delaware are not northeastern states -- changes in economics, religion, language, ancestry etc do NOT matter.

If these things were qualifiers for differentiating north from south, then we can move that argument to a number of states in a number of regions.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:21 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post

a) religion
b) linguistics
c) politics
d) ancestry
(half a point here)
e) economics

^
Can you put Maryland in the southeast when it comes to these factors? You've made half an argument for ancestry regarding blacks and immigrant populations, but how come you can't make a decent argument that Maryland is the southeast based on religion, linguistics, politics, and economics? You can't put Maryland in the southeast when it comes to these crucial points. Logically it's a northeastern state. I would love to say "I'm a Southerner" but I can't because it's just not true. Here's the breakdown:
By religion? By Catholic %, lower than every Northeastern state except the mainly rural Vermont and Maine. Higher than the south, but fits with the north outside of the Northeast and west (at least when excluding hispanics):

Catholic Church in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linguistics? Accent is mainly general American (few obvious regional characteristics), with a hint of a southern sound in parts and maybe a hint of a northern sound in others. Politics? The federal government influence makes it more Democratic than it would be otherwise, though likely it would still be more of a blue state than further south. Economics? Yes, Maryland is wealthier than most of the south
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Sorry BajanYankee, I am not going to dismiss cultural, political, and economic realities because a number of people in a City Data thread feel one way. City Data is hardly representative of everyone in the country. It is a select group of people. You found a poll where a slight majority of people (who we aren't even sure of origins or location) that said Baltimore isn't a northern city, but there are numerous threads on the subject and most people say it is northern. Just look up Maryland northern state/southern state and there are many threads. I'm not going to insult your intelligence because intellectually you know this. I've also looked at countless internet polls online and can't find a single one placing Maryland in the southeast. Go ahead, make a poll in the General US forum asking if Maryland is northern or southern - we both know it will be northern. Most people in the US consider it to be that, and while there are arguments that can be made, it just doesn't stack up.
You keep changing the subject. The thread is not about which states are southern. It's about which states are "northeastern." Not "Northern" or "Midwestern" or anything else.

How are you going to dismiss a poll in the Baltimore forum of all places and then tell me to set up a poll on the General forum? If you want to know about Baltimore, the Baltimore forum is the logical place to ask the question. Besides, much of regional identity is about the people who actually live in that place, and if they don't consider themselves to be in the "Northeast," then who are you or me or anyone else to tell them otherwise?
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:34 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,016 posts, read 102,649,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
A southern accent also appears in the Baltimore accent of the White population.



The Mid-Atlantic Dialects
You bet it does! I am from the Pittsburgh, PA area. When I was in college, my family moved to Frederick, MD. When the movers arrived, they sounded soooo southern! After a while there, my mom said you didn't even hear the southern accent. (I didn't live there much as I was in a year-round program in Pittsburgh.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
I couldn't agree more. Especially the part about arguments being able to be flipped over. I agree about the history of the black populatino in Maryland.

But why does Maryland match the northeast instead of the southeast in terms of religion?

Religion in America Map

Do note on that map that Maryland also matches much of the midwest, parts of Texas (the south), Louisiana (ditto), Florida (ditto), and virtually all the western US except the LDS (Mormon) areas, e.g. all of Utah, about half of Idaho, parts of Arizona and a few counties in some of the other western states. Is Maryland now part of the west coast?

Why do Marylanders share accents with Philadelphia and the Northern States? Southerners have southern accents, not northern accents.

They don't. See my response to Bajan (agreeing with him).

There's Wooder Awn The Ruhf

American English Dialects

Why does Maryland have gay marriage like the northeast - in fact before much of the northeast - while zero southern states do?

Gay Marriage Map

Gay marriage is a litmus test of North v South?

Why does Maryland align with the Northeast politically? Why is it one of the most democratic blue states in the entire country (like most of the northeast), instead of incredibly red (like the south)?

Last Few Elections


There are a lot of government workers there. They know which side their bread is buttered on.

Why is the ancestry of the BULK of Marylanders (note I said Bulk, not tiny minority populations like Puerto Ricans) shared with Pennsylvania and upstate NY instead of Virginia and NC?

American Ancestry Map

As with religion, a predominant German ancestry is shared with almost the entire midwest, and much of the west.

Why isn't Maryland considered southern by Southerners? "Also, Maryland ó well and truly ó is not a Southern state, according to actual Southerners. It pulled a pathetic 6 percent of the vote. Thatís worse than Arizona and New Mexico".

What States Are Southern?

Why is that in Dr. Shelton Reed's UNC Focus Study (A study that BajanYankee has cited many times earlier), a minority of Marylanders identified as southern, while 80+ percent from southern states claim they are?

"Strong support for including such states as Texas, Kentucky and Oklahoma in the South. On the other hand, West Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and the District of Columbia donít belong anymore, if they ever did".

"Notice the somewhat fortuitous "break point" between the non-Southern state with the most minority support (45%) [West Virginia] for southern status and the Southern state with the lowest majority support (69%) for southern status."


So IMHO the wikipedia map of the northeast does the most justice. Is MD or DE the northeast like Massachussetts or New Hampshire? No. But most people consider it the northeast, for better or worse. There is far too much it has in common with the northeast, and far too little in common with states like NC. If we want to stick to abstract historical arguments, or use the census bureau as a bible on the matter, than we can say that these states are southern or not part of the northeast. But if we are talking about an intelligent assessment of these state's culture, politics, and economy, then yes, they are without a doubt the southernmost part of the northeast. BajanYankee makes good arguments about the black population having more southern influence (I was in Philly last weekend and personally I dont see a difference in black accents until NYC/North Jersey), but when we look at these entire states overall they are quite northeastern. MD/DE are the southernmost parts of the north, and Virginia is the northernmost part of the south.



You have done an excellent job highlighting what seems to be every conceivable difference between MD (and DE) and the rest of the northeast, but it still just doesn't stack up. You make some good historical points, and points about Latinos and other minority groups. These populations may be defining features of NYC or other major metros, but the bulk of the population is white or even black Americans and not particularly affected by immigrant groups who tend to form their own enclaves. When we look at the big picture - whole population - MD and DE are definitely northeastern. Northeastern like Worcester, MA? No, but closer to Pennsylvania and South Jersey than Virginia and NC. I mean, it's not even really close.



North Jersey - the NYC metro area? Sure. I am more skeptical about South Jersey compared to MD. Even more so, what about Pennsylvania? Pennsylvania is very different from the rest of the Northeast, but it is certainly northeastern. The reality is that most of MD has more in common with these places than Virginia outside of NOVA. Many of the differences you highlight in the northeast leave large parts of it as outliers - Maine, Pennsylvania, Vermont, upstate NY. You have decent arguments for NYC and Boston but these areas are not the whole northeast. South Jersey and PA are the northeast, and so are Rochester and Burlington.



Sure. But is York, PA very Italian or Irish? No. Less though than many places in Maryland I would wager. But that doesn't make it the south. What about Vermont and Maine? They have French Canadian minorities but New Jersey doesn't - does this exclude New Jersey from being the "true" northeast? I would say no. These minority groups are unique and help define different areas within the northeast, but it isn't as if they are universally present in any significance in northeastern towns and it isn't as if they are evenly distributed. For example, there just aren't that many Puerto Ricans in New Hampshire, but this doesn't make New Hampshire less northeastern than Philadelphia.



Good individual points, but as a whole they don't stack up. Like cpterp says, we can flip this around. According to Wiki the Buffalo metro areas is 3% Hispanic - but where I am now is much more Hispanic than that. Virginia has a huge hispanic population for the east coast, but that doesn't change all of the other more important factors that put it in the south. Either way, the percentage of hispanics is a fact worth presenting, but it isn't anything close to a debate changing statistic. I feel like you are throwing lots and lots of pebbles (the only rock would be the historical facts pre-1860 and the black population) while I am presenting you with with game-changing evidence. The game changing evidence is that Maryland lines up beautifully with the northeast when it comes to these factors:

a) religion
b) linguistics
c) politics
d) ancestry
(half a point here)
e) economics


These criteria are absolutely crucial because they are the defining factors for a region's culture. Is Maryland/DE going to be a carbon copy of New Jersey? Of course not! But in all of these categories these places fall easily within the northeast, rather than the southeast. There is simply no way anyone could argue that Maryland has more in common with the southeast than the northeast when it comes to these critical factors.

The weakest link would be ancestry - as you have pointed out many times - where Maryland has a large native black population which is a trait more similar to VA. Also a difference would be the fact that there has been heavier migration of certain groups major cities like NYC that hasn't occurred in a significant way in Baltimore.


But do these facts outweigh religion, linguistics, politics, economics, and the ancestry of MOST people (German like PA)? No, they don't. In fact, we can flip the ancestry arguments you put forward on their head and argue that much of the northeast simply doesn't see much in the way of Latinos or Italians, and other groups outside of major metros areas. I know that where I am resembles a Connecticut suburb, but it is true I can't say Baltimore resembles NYC demographically.
There's not much outside of major metro areas in most of the NE, outside of NY and PA.

Mine in green.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
You bet it does! I am from the Pittsburgh, PA area. When I was in college, my family moved to Frederick, MD. When the movers arrived, they sounded soooo southern! After a while there, my mom said you didn't even hear the southern accent. (I didn't live there much as I was in a year-round program in Pittsburgh.)
Katiana, stop being a hater with your anecdotal evidence that means nothing. FWIW, I heard a southern accent on a ski trip to Vermont once? Does that mean it's southern? No. Maryland is indisputably part of the Northeast. And that's the reason why nobody ever disputes it being part of the Northeast.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Derby, CT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Katiana, stop being a hater with your anecdotal evidence that means nothing. FWIW, I heard a southern accent on a ski trip to Vermont once? Does that mean it's southern? No. Maryland is indisputably part of the Northeast. And that's the reason why nobody ever disputes it being part of the Northeast.
Tell that to the 89 pages in this thread
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:44 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,989 posts, read 41,998,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Yeah, but those places will never have the fast-paced lifestyle of Bowie Town Center.
I know you weren't serious there, but what was that trying to imply? Is Bowie town center known for anything? I've visited there before briefly, a good friend of my dad's lives there. Don't remember seeing much besides large-ish suburban houses, there was an old part but it looked small and not that compact, as I assumed it was mostly rural years ago.
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