Was Cleopatra VII "black" or part "black?" (Japanese, peace)

[cpg35223]

Originally Posted by Woof

I'm more surprised that the Romans only got a start on an Industrial Revolution. They did have capital ventures, some factories and organized industries, insurance, advanced building techniques, and the beginnings of infrastructure throughout the Empire. I think though that the accumulation and expansion of knowledge and technology through a widespread university system was the missing component to getting their IR off the ground and running permanently.

That's because Trajan squelched technological innovation. While he was known for his concern regarding the welfare of his people, he evidently banned labor-saving machines lest it created unemployment (I cannot find the reference immediately, but the fact has stuck with me). Had he not done so, it would have been one of the great What Ifs of world history.

[Woof]

Interesting. Thanks, cpg.

[Poncho_NM]

12:21, 21st Oct 2011, Closed For Moderation.
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Rich

[Woof]

Originally Posted by Strelnikov

It's not. But it beats hanging out at McDonalds.

note to self: don't go off on a tangent about Rome

[Six Foot Three]

Originally Posted by kovert

What I am most interested in, close to this time period, is Hero/Heron of Alexandria, the Serapeum of Alexandria and the role of Egyptian scholars, priests and philosophers in the Mouseum and the Great Library.

I believe the Serapeum was housed in the Egyptian quarter (Raqedi) of Alexandria, and it also had its own library associated with the Great Library.

Especially during the time of Hero/n, the great minds of Alexandria apparently knew about robotics, programming, electromagnetism and the power of steam.

What was the role of Alexandrians of native Egyptian descent in all those developments? Why did the Alexandrians not start the Industrial Revolution two thousand years ago? To me, those are far more interesting questions, than the obsession moderns have with the skin color of the Ptolemeis' sexual partners.

Yes i'd luv to know what secrets those mysterious egyptian esoteric schools held .

My pondering thoughts about why they didn't inovate to an ''industrial revolution'' from the days of Hero was possibly two-fold ..... as firstly that region was constantly inundated with war between the roman and parthian empires till 224 a.d. and secondly i really do believe that the fast spreading wave of the new religion i.e. christianity put the dampers on innovation as people were taught to start thinking about the afterlife and not of workings of this world or at least that is what i've come away when studying about that time era.

What do you think Kovert?

[kovert]

Originally Posted by 6 Foot 3

All good stuff above in your posting Kovert .

It is kind of odd when pondering about how the powerful Hittites eventually fell to or because of the ''Sea'' Peoples'' and yet the Egyptians persevered.

Any thoughts about that?

I believed I recommended this text to you before, but for updated info on the Sea Peoples, I would suggest The kingdom of the Hittites by Bryce.

Bryce mentions the possible connections between the Sea Peoples and later groups better known as Philistines, Achaeans, Danaiou and Etruscans.

Bryce also notes that since Egypt under Ramses III was the only super power left standing, Ramses III might have taken advantage of the situation and took a more aggressive stance against the remnants of the Bronze Age states left standing. I believe this may be the origins of the stories of Egyptian world conquerors recorded by the Hellenes. I have read books that have generally dismissed the claims made by Ramses III inscriptions about many of his conquests but when you look at it, after the Sea Peoples and their alleged rampages, who's in a better position than Ramses to go on the offensive and gain territory.

This was why I considered Ramses III, Thutmoses I & III along with the Sensuret line of kings to be among the world's greatest warrior kings.

Originally Posted by 6 Foot 3

Yes i'd luv to know what secrets those mysterious egyptian esoteric schools held .

My pondering thoughts about why they didn't inovate to an ''industrial revolution'' from the days of Hero was possibly two-fold ..... as firstly that region was constantly inundated with war between the roman and parthian empires till 224 a.d. and secondly i really do believe that the fast spreading wave of the new religion i.e. christianity put the dampers on innovation as people were taught to start thinking about the afterlife and not of workings of this world or at least that is what i've come away when studying about that time era.

What do you think Kovert?

What I think is that the pre-Industrial Revolution in Alexandria is a fascinating topic, which has received much too little attention. The Serapeum of Alexandria and its library, the Mouseum and the role of native Egyptian teachers and scholars are the perfect topics for a young and ambitious grand student to make a name for him or herself.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have already apologized before for the disagreements I engaged in earlier posts on this thread.

I believe the source of the disagreements is a generational and a knowledge gap.

Egyptology and other disciplines relating to the study of the past of non-European civilizations and cultures, particularly from the time of the early-mid 19th century up to the period around the 2 world wars did not develop in a ideological free, totally empirical vacuum.

This was the era of colonialism along with the various ideologies used to justify and rationalize colonialism. Egyptology, archaeology, the medical field, anthropology, the translations of historical texts along with many other academic fields were not insulated from the ideologies associated with maintaining colonialism.

Despite this certain finds and breakthroughs were being made, that were creating paradigm shifts, in that notions that were previously seen to be absolute and indisputable truths were being contradicted by hard evidence being found in the then most unlikely of areas.

The period between WWI & WWII was when discoveries were made in the deserts of the Egyptian and Sudanese portions of the Nile as well as further west in the Maghrib. What was particularly curious was the evidence that not only during certain time periods, what is now the most arid location on the planet once could support plant and animal life which is now only located south and north of the Sahara desert proper, but that the peoples of the Sahara also seemed to have abundant herds of domestic cattle.

The Fezzan mummy was discovered in the 1950's or 60's I believe. Thus evidence for the deliberate mummification of an individual was found in an oasis of the Saharan portion of modern Libya hundreds, if not a millennium before the practice appeared in Egypt and among semi-nomadic cattle pastoralists to boot.

The building of the Aswan dam caused a flurry of work to be done in northern Nubia during the 60's-70's, which revealed the PreDynastic kingdom of Ta Seti, which seemed surprising since previously academia regarded Nubia as the backwards region of the Nile in constant need of northern civilizing.

Then there was the discoveries made again in the deserts west of the Nubian Nile, particularly Nabta Playa from the 70's on. These finds not only revealed one of the oldest and independent development of pottery, but also of the domestication of cattle around 9000-8800 B.C.E.

Other researchers found evidence for attempts at animal and plant management usually associated with the Natufians of south west Asia, yet they appeared in the Maghrib and the southern Egyptian and Nubian Nile, thousands of years before the Natufians. Not to mention researchers that have argued that the Natufian and the earlier Mushabian cultures of south west Asia derived from the Nile area cultures.

The advancements in physical anthropology and genetics (allowing one to determine the biological relatedness of populations), linguistics (the use of language to study the past), more translations of historical texts, work that was being done on the evolution and origin of humanity in north and northeastern Africa, and improvements in technology that allowed for safe entry (and most importantly exit) to previously inhospitable and deadly areas of the Sahara. There was also a growing collaboration between continental African scholars and those of North America and Europe. The UNESCO series in particular is an excellent example of this as well the relatively new Saharan Studies Association.

These joint academic ventures are not only building relationships between scholars of different backgrounds, they are once again forcing mainstream academia to recognize the relationship between the Sahara desert proper with the fertile Tell of the Maghrib and the Nile region as being oases (albeit enormous) of the Sahara as well the connections the Sahara has had with the sub-Saharan regions of the Horn of Africa, the regions around the Senegal and Niger rivers along with lake Chad.

This growing body of evidence started to gain momentum during the 1920's, so by the time I started my research in the late 90's early 21st century it was pretty much mature and being presented in the texts of prestigious universities like Oxford, Cambridge and the like.

So that was where I was coming from when I 1st entered this thread.

It was also quite obvious that before I made my debut on the thread, more or less, based on the content of posts, most people that posted where of the school of thought that was dominant from the 19th century to world war time period.

When I began posting the posters who contested my statements were completely oblivious about the advancements and discoveries I mentioned in the paragraphs above. Some of them were even clueless that this information is likewise available, if not in full view then in preview, at google scholar, google books, archive.org or hell even Amazon.

And for others it goes even deeper than that. They seem to have been stuck in a time warp from the days of the Afrocentric/Eurocentric debates of the 90's. Debates which from my observations have more to do with societal tensions and notions of modern day times (especially those that happened in America) that individuals projected into earlier times. I also noticed that many of the individuals engaged in the debates had little or no knowledge nor desire to learn from the recent books and papers being published. It was purely about emotionalism among from 2 camps that were fundamentally anti-intellectual and had no inclination to actually learn something about the topic they got their panties up in a bunch over.

Its like walking into the office of a company's web development team and you see the supposed experts arguing over the browser wars of the 1990's as though they were happening today. Netscape is dead, and although IE is still around there are new and often better alternatives such as Opera, FF and Chrome. So imagine yourself in 2011 going on 2012 and you see "experts" whose minds seem to be frozen in time from the 90's. Or guys who in this day and age are still using MS DOS or Win 95 claiming they are in the know about the latest and greatest while there is not only XP & 7 but also Mac and various flavors of linux/unix.

The posts that I saw before I joined in the conversation and those that tried to dispute me seemed so outdated, almost archaic, not mention flat out wrong since they seemed to adhere to theories that have been long discarded, debunked and abandoned, they did not and simply could not stand the test of time.

Still what's past is past, what's done is done. I don't forget but I know how to forgive.

So from now on, I'll keep it in consideration that those who post may not have the most up to date information, but those that have not picked up a book on the subject in the last 10-20 years should likewise be mindful that time stands still for no one and new discoveries have been made and paradigms have been shifted if not destroyed.

Overall, I think this has been and can continue to be a very informative thread and I look forward to discovering new details and sharing them with the thread and I encourage others to do the same as well.

Idealistic Realist.

[Six Foot Three]

Originally Posted by kovert

I believed I recommended this text to you before, but for updated info on the Sea Peoples, I would suggest The kingdom of the Hittites by Bryce.

Bryce mentions the possible connections between the Sea Peoples and later groups better known as Philistines, Achaeans, Danaiou and Etruscans.

Bryce also notes that since Egypt under Ramses III was the only super power left standing, Ramses III might have taken advantage of the situation and took a more aggressive stance against the remnants of the Bronze Age states left standing. I believe this may be the origins of the stories of Egyptian world conquerors recorded by the Hellenes. I have read books that have generally dismissed the claims made by Ramses III inscriptions about many of his conquests but when you look at it, after the Sea Peoples and their alleged rampages, who's in a better position than Ramses to go on the offensive and gain territory.

This was why I considered Ramses III, Thutmoses I & III along with the Sensuret line of kings to be among the world's greatest warrior kings.

While i don't believe that the ''sea peoples'' were a homogenous grouping however that being said i do believe that we have to look strongly at the Mycenaeans who were the mediterranean sea power from 1900 b.c. - 1100 b.c. as strong canidates for some of those attacks on Egypt and Libya and have you noticed that the Mycenaeans have never mentioned about being attacked by the ''sea peoples'' unless you include their destruction around 1100 b.c. although most likely by the Dorians and interestingly the sea peoples fade out around the exact same time (1100 b.c.) from history as the Mycenaeans.

[kovert]

There's something I've got to get off my chest, so now that I've completed another phase in my ongoing research, its time I gave these guys a piece of my mind!

So lets take a trip down memory lane and review some posts.

Originally Posted by 6 Foot 3

Kovert, you seem in the know about ancient northeast africa as i assume that you're from egypt or libya?

You obviously recognize a good researcher when you see one.

Originally Posted by 6 Foot 3

Anyway a tad off subject here however i'd like to know who were those ancient ''stone age'' peoples that were living in northeast africa as i'm somewhat in the camp that believes that the ancient below ground Osirian Temple and even the Sphinx weren't built by the ''Old Kingdom'' pharaohs but instead built around 10,500 b.c. by an super intelligent peoples possibly wiped out by the ''Younger Dryas'' ice age or cataclysmic event that possibly had brought it on.

You were conscious of drifting off into a tangential topic but intellectual curiosity led you to go there anyways. Not to mention you were upfront about where you stand and are coming from. Even if it is from a position that the orthodoxy, the mainstream, might not accept and often ridicules. The traits of an independent thinker.

Originally Posted by 6 Foot 3

Thanks for the info and yeap i've known about Nabta Playa and i wanted to add that egyptian researcher/scholar John Anthony West has some really fascinating findings on ancient egypt as well.

Awareness of up to date findings on Nabta, west of the modern day Nubian Nile. I have heard of West and if I'm not mistaken, like Bauval & Brophy, West is popular among certain New Age circles (if I'm not correct on this, feel free to enlighten me). So it appears you keep up with developments and have no problems approaching issues from perspectives the mainstream does not use nor are even aware of.

Originally Posted by 6 Foot 3

Lol, i'd have to start a whole new thread or threads about all i've learned and also don't know when it comes to ''ancient'' egypt especially going back to the ''Age of Leo'' 10,500 b.c.

Seems you have indeed, a strong and persistent interest and have been actively researching the Nile cultures, even if that interest leads into areas the mainstream generally ignores, avoids and runs away from and yet you are fully aware there is much, much more to learn and discover.

Originally Posted by 6 Foot 3

Who were the Sea Peoples

I luv this subject and it's something that archaeologists and Bronze Age historians have pondered for quite a time and if i was betting on this i'd bet money that the Mycenaeans either had a vast part of the ''Sea Peoples'' attacks or at least knew of them as we've found Mycenaean swords as far away as the British Isles as they were not only great sailors but also badasses when it came to battle.

Again aware that current academics have long debated the relationships and connections between the Mycenaens, Sea Peoples and the later Hellenes.

Originally Posted by 6 Foot 3

All good stuff above in your posting Kovert .

It is kind of odd when pondering about how the powerful Hittites eventually fell to or because of the ''Sea'' Peoples'' and yet the Egyptians persevered.

Any thoughts about that?

Asking a good question here.

Originally Posted by 6 Foot 3

Yes i'd luv to know what secrets those mysterious egyptian esoteric schools held .

My pondering thoughts about why they didn't inovate to an ''industrial revolution'' from the days of Hero was possibly two-fold ..... as firstly that region was constantly inundated with war between the roman and parthian empires till 224 a.d. and secondly i really do believe that the fast spreading wave of the new religion i.e. christianity put the dampers on innovation as people were taught to start thinking about the afterlife and not of workings of this world or at least that is what i've come away when studying about that time era.

What do you think Kovert?

Once again with the questions.

So lets see what this cat has demonstrated:
1. Intellectual curiosity
2. Independent thinking
3. Taking a clear and consistent position
4. Tries to stay up to date
5. Asks questions
6. And most importantly of all, demonstrates persistence and willingness to engage in long term research.

Previously I stated that this thread has barely skimmed the surface in regards to the origins and history of the Hellenes.

From the Minoans/Keftiu and the Mycenaeans; the Sea Peoples; the Pelasgians; the Carians and Ionian Hellenes and their interaction with the Nile cultures which also seems to coincide with the development of Hellene philosophy; the relationship between the Libyan Pentapolis (Cyrenaica) and the local tribes; the role of "native" Egyptians in the scientific and technological developments in Alexandria; looking into the origins of Cleopatra extend far beyond just Cleopatra.

This is a fascinating area of study and based on what I've seen from you, 6, I can think of no one more qualified than you to lead such an investigation. So for what its worth, 6, you would be my nominee.

Of course its up to you, if you have the time and inclination. But if you're still interested and able, I will gladly offer my assistance.

And now for the other fellow:

Originally Posted by Clark Park

I have several dozen books on Cleopatra, including translations of the original Roman histories by Plutarch, Tacitus, and Suetonius. The best I suppose is the very detailed and very lengthy biography written in 1973 by Michael Grant.

Anyway, no one is saying Cleopatra is 100% European because her great-great grandmother was Cleopatra I of the Syrian Seleucid dynasty, and she was often called "The Syrian." So from this we can extrapolate that Cleopatra Thea Philopator was in fact mostly European with a little bit of western Asian in her. Is it possible that Cleopatra had actual Egyptian blood in her? Professor Duane Roller, the chairman of the Greek and Latin Departments at Ohio State University thinks so, in his book Cleopatra - A biography (Oxford University Press, 2010), Prof. Roller suggests the Queen had cousins amongst the Greco-Egyptian royal priests of Ptah, if Queen Cleopatra V Tryphaena was not in fact her mother. That is Prof. Roller's guess, and many scholars disagree with him. I think Prof. Roller may have a point (a delightful elderly man - I met him and had a wonderful conversation with him, he autographed my copy of his book and later congratulated me on my article about the famous queen.)

More to the point, Cleo's contemporaries and her Roman enemies regarded her as a Greek, not an Egyptian. She looked like a Greek. Her name is a Greek word. Her native language was Greek.

Another interesting and controversial question: is it possible Cleopatra was part Jewish? One must remember that Alexandria was about 40% Jewish during the time Cleo was alive; she spoke Hebrew and Aramaic (the language of Jesus) fluently and knew everything about Jewish religion and philosophy. Her Seleucid ancestors were known to have inter-married with Judean families. I'm going out on a limb here, but if it is possible this Hellenistic Macedonian Queen might have had Egyptian relatives I think it is possible she had Jewish relatives as well. She certainly acted like a Jewish Princess ... actually more like a Jewish Empress!

Originally Posted by Clark Park

In fact the first Ptolemy, Ptolemy I "Soter" ("The Savior") was either Alexander The Great's first cousin or even perhaps his half brother. The family of all those Ptolemies, Cleopatras, Berenices, and Arsinoes was called The Lagids.

Calling these men Ptolemy I, Ptolemy II, Ptolemy III is actually a modern construct. They were never known as such in their own era. Same thing for Cleopatra VII. They all took a ceremonial first name of "Ptolemy" for traditional and historical reasons, very much as the modern kings of Thailand are all formally known as "Rama" even though the present living King of Thailand is formally described as "Rama IX" his real name is Bhumibol Adulyadej. HM King Bhumibol's illustrious ancestors include King Mongkut and King Chulalongkorn who were made familiar to Americans because of the musical and movie "The King And I" however their official ceremonial names were Rama IV and Rama V.

Originally Posted by Clark Park

Actually the ancient names of Egypt was Kemet and Hikuptah ("the Abode of the God Ptah"). The ancient Hebrews called it Misr, and that name is Egypt's name in the Hebrew scriptures, and it is also the official name of Egypt in Arabic: El Misr.

It was the ancient Greeks who called the land Aegyptos.

No doubt Cleopatra VII Thea Philopator of the Ptolemaic Dynasty referred to her kingdom as Aegyptos, since Greek was her native tongue and the official court language at Alexandria.

Clark, you have made some excellent posts in this thread that have not received the attention they deserve.

The contents of your posts preceded some of my more recent findings.

Thanks for bringing more of an academic outlook to the thread and hope you continue to contribute.

[eloy]

inquiry
"IndoEuro "
se - sel Rus ( sit down )
mas - muslavi Rus ( Dribbling , baby )
pet - potolok Rus ( sky, top )
tep - top Eng
wedjat - videt Rus ( To see, an eye )

mesedjer - message Eng
hepet - hapat Rus (To take, embrace , Hands )
maat - ma mama
ka - ko(a)rova Rus ( cow )
ba - baran Rus ( ram )
te - testo Rus ( (Dough, bread )
ra - ra/duga ra/mpa etc Rus ( Light, ra/diation, ra/inbow, name of God etc )
Pta - pta+ha Rus ( Bird )
Organizmica-A new science. (c)

[Manolón]

Natu (bablaste Rus, radiation, bad raccon)
Barada ( baran Rus, ram, 124Kb Vegan system)
Nikto (Organizmica lo-lo-lo call scally)