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Old 09-19-2011, 07:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There is no passage in the Qur'an that commands an apostate to be killed. Just the opposite seems to be the rule. How can a man return to being an apostate if he was killed for being an apostate?

Surah 47::


25Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.
That ayyat is speaking of Muslims who apostate, return to Islam and apostasies again. If we are to kill apostates how could a person become an apostate, later return to Islam and than again leave Islam?



Those who turn their back on Islam are to be executed. This is confirmed by the words and deeds of Muhammad. The only freedom of belief in Islam is the freedom to become Muslim.


The Qur'an:
Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"
Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist." Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Qur'an verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, and 9:66.


From the Hadith:

The reason why executing apostates has always been well-ensconced in Islamic law is that there is an indisputable record of Muhammad and his companions doing exactly that according to the reliable Hadith. According to verse 4:80 of the Quran: "Whoso obeyeth the Messenger obeyeth Allah."

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim.

Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"

Abu Dawud (4346) - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?" Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress. (The person in question was Muhammad's former scribe who left him after doubting the authenticity of divine "revelations" upon finding out that he could suggest grammatical changes. He was brought back to Muhammad after having been captured in Medina).

Reliance of the Traveller (Islamic Law) o8.1 - "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed." (o8.4 affirms that there is no penalty for killing an apostate).
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:09 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,978,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakraman View Post
If you put yourself in God's shoes you would understand. Muhammad steers people away from God's love. Islam makes it illigal for anyone to love God of the NT. There is a passage in Rev. stating how God is FURIOUS at the False Prophet, and it is very understandable.
Join the real world and recognize that it all an fricking fairy tale, doesn't matter which fairy tale you subscribe to............. that is the insanity, a self destructive insanity, problem is it condemns all of humanity to the repercussions of this insanity.
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
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Quite a bit here to cover at one sitting. I will begin with just the Qur'an ayyats you quoted. I used to use very similar Arguments when debating Muslims.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakraman View Post
Those who turn their back on Islam are to be executed. This is confirmed by the words and deeds of Muhammad. The only freedom of belief in Islam is the freedom to become Muslim.


The Qur'an:
Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"
How does that relate to apostates? Surah 4 covers numerous areas of interaction with people. This is not speaking of apostates it is speaking of evil doers who turn renegade and attack you, in which case you are permitted to protect your self. In the very next ayyat, it goes on to explain that if they enter into a peace treaty and cease fighting, you are forbidden to harm them.

90. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).






Quote:
]Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist." Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Qur'an verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, and 9:66.

Again where is the ayyat speaking of apostates?

7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.
8. How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.
9. The Signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered from His way: evil indeed are the deeds they have done.
10. In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.
11. But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.
12. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.
13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!



How does 2:217 support killing apostates?


217. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

or 9:73-74

72. Allah hath promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the good pleasure of Allah. that is the supreme felicity.
73. O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.
74. They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.
75. Amongst them are men who made a covenant with Allah, that if He bestowed on them of His bounty, they would give (largely) in charity, and be truly amongst those who are righteous.
76. But when He did bestow of His bounty, they became covetous, and turned back (from their covenant), averse (from its fulfilment).
77. So He hath put as a consequence hypocrisy into their hearts, (to last) till the Day, whereon they shall meet Him: because they broke their covenant with Allah, and because they lied (again and again).

or 88:21

Surah 88 seems to be speaking of judgement day. I'm going to paste ayyats 88:1-21 to clarify the connection. It is not speaking of killing apostates.

1. Has the story reached thee of the overwhelming (Event)?
2. Some faces, that Day, will be humiliated,
3. Labouring (hard), weary,-
4. The while they enter the Blazing Fire,-
5. The while they are given, to drink, of a boiling hot spring,
6. No food will there be for them but a bitter Dhari'
7. Which will neither nourish nor satisfy hunger.
8. (Other) faces that Day will be joyful,
9. Pleased with their striving,-
10. In a Garden on high,
11. Where they shall hear no (word) of vanity:
12. Therein will be a bubbling spring:
13. Therein will be Thrones (of dignity), raised on high,
14. Goblets placed (ready),
15. And cushions set in rows,
16. And rich carpets (all) spread out.
17. Do they not look at the Camels, how they are made?-
18. And at the Sky, how it is raised high?-
19. And at the Mountains, how they are fixed firm?-
20. And at the Earth, how it is spread out?
21. Therefore do thou give admonition, for thou art one to admonish.
22. Thou art not one to manage (men's) affairs.
23. But if any turn away and reject Allah,-
24. Allah will punish him with a mighty Punishment,



Surah 5:Ayyat 54: when read with what it relates to


53. And those who believe will say: "Are these the men who swore their strongest oaths by Allah, that they were with you?" All that they do will be in vain, and they will fall into (nothing but) ruin.
54. O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.
55. Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).
56. As to those who turn (for friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- it is the fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph.
57. O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed).
58. When ye proclaim your call to prayer they take it (but) as mockery and sport; that is because they are a people without understanding.
59. Say: "O people of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?"



None of those command us to kill apostates.


Quite interesting that the blue links in your Quran quotes come from the:


Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement
A Partnership between the Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion,
Omar Ibn Al Khattab Foundation, & USC Center for Religion and Civic Culture


Click on the name and visit the site and learn a little bit about Islam from Jews that live in peace with Muslims.


Last edited by Woodrow LI; 09-19-2011 at 08:56 PM..
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Old 09-19-2011, 10:25 PM
 
148 posts, read 263,674 times
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@ Woodrow LI
I greatly appreciate your huge effort to clarify the truth.
May Allah shed more light on you brother.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:28 PM
 
Location: Houston, Texas
10,425 posts, read 44,675,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a slave of Allah View Post
@ Woodrow LI
I greatly appreciate your huge effort to clarify the truth.
May Allah shed more light on you brother.
The only thing allah sheds on us are his instructions to throw hand grenades at anyone you don't like. You seem to be avoiding all the quotes from your cult book which order killings and rape by your hero. No explanation? Or do you just agree with it.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:34 PM
 
148 posts, read 263,674 times
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Default Before spreading war, please answer these 4

I hope these questions will help us to achieve peace. by God's Will.

I just advice myself and my brothers and sisters here (non muslims especially) to get out of the problems and conflicts with us for a while (at least), and think freely of the following:

1. Do you have the right to control what you own as you wish?

2. Is it right for any country to search for terrorists and kill them?

3. What is the reference for huminity that must be followed to know what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is bad?

4. What is justice? What is the result of opposing it?


May Allah doesn't block us from His Light, eventhough we deserve such punishment as we are sinners and not sincere in seeking the truth.

And if All‚h were to seize mankind for their wrong-doing, He would not leave on it (the earth) a single moving (living) creature, but He postpones them for an appointed term and when their term comes, neither can they delay nor can they advance it an hour. (61) [Quran:Ch.16]
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:39 PM
 
Location: SWUS
5,421 posts, read 7,896,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a slave of Allah View Post
I hope these questions will help us to achieve peace. by God's Will.

I just advice myself and my brothers and sisters here (non muslims especially) to get out of the problems and conflicts with us for a while (at least), and think freely of the following:

1. Do you have the right to control what you own as you wish?

2. Is it right for any country to search for terrorists and kill them?

3. What is the reference for huminity that must be followed to know what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is bad?

4. What is justice? What is the result of opposing it?


May Allah doesn't block us from His Light, eventhough we deserve such punishment as we are sinners and not sincere in seeking the truth.

And if All‚h were to seize mankind for their wrong-doing, He would not leave on it (the earth) a single moving (living) creature, but He postpones them for an appointed term and when their term comes, neither can they delay nor can they advance it an hour. (61) [Quran:Ch.16]
1. Yes, I believe that I SHOULD have the right to control what I own as I wish. Government says otherwise.
2. Muslim countries do this as well
3. People can generally agree on things that are right and wrong on their own, without the help of a book that was written by MEN.
4. I have no good answer for this because that's one of those questions that will be different for eveyone.
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:14 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,379,377 times
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Default You asked, I've answered! And without sarcasm, no less!

Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmessage View Post
what i wanted to say is that Adam and Eve were the first male and female in this planet and from them all of us got existed.

and Adam Eve got existed by Allah and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him). And He is the All-Knower of every thing.

The Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it: "Be!" - and it is.

i want to know what is the first thing got existed in this planet and from it you got existed,
and what power caused it to exist .

the thing that is making you comfortable and you are sure about it.
Well, respectfully, fm, I know we did not descend from Adam and Eve, in just 5000 or so years. How do I know this?

1) As a background, I am very well educated in biology to the Doctorate level, including Evolution, toxicology, genetics and additional degrees in the logical & mathematical sciences (engineering, geology, and even some electronics). This means I think things through logically, "step-wise", and if they are HIGHLY improbable, or technically IMPOSSIBLE, I also put on my "skeptical" hat.

2) It's also not possible for two people to have produced the literally tens of thousands of recognizablly different races, tribes and variants. The simple mathematics of population dynamics (Two people starting it off, with just one lonely set of genetics, [their unique phenotype and genotype] cannot produce, in a mere 5000 [or even 25,000 or 50,000 years, for that matter...], with known and documented world plagues, diseases, wars, famine and overland migrations, simply does not allow for the current world population of 6.5+ billion people. As well, this also does not include the uncountable billions who have already died.

3) I'm also very familiar with the science behind genetics and the proofs of modern Evolutionary theory (which, in science, does NOT mean a poorly supported guess, BTW...), and it's pretty conclusive now. when all the various elements that support it are viewed dispassionately, and logically, the conclusion is inescapable (for a half-ways reasonable and intellectually honest person at least, and if you prefer lying to yourself, then what can one say about their own integrity??!)

4) Taken all together, I must weigh the fables and disproved stories obout God, Jesus, Allah and Islam, against the obvious facts, the consensus of conclusions and deductions, and the massive body of information and evidence that ever-improving modern science provides us.

5) To conclude otherwise, especially when your God, your Allah, your Jesus, and so on, have NEVER provided us with a single episode, a "miracle" that is unambiguous, or as a measurable, documented (with a non-faked video for example) proof of their presence or involvement in ANY activity. Everything is held as strong evidence by the religious occurred back in history when, conveniently, there were no such means of documentation.

6) The two major "history" and "fact" books [the bible and the Qu'ran are full of flaws, contradictions and outright lies. Both have been translated, revised, faked-up and retitled so many times, and yet no-one seems to take that into consideration. You just accept and BELIEVE them, no matter how obvious is their fakery! How odd, don't you think?]

7) Finally, the awesome beauty of this earth, or the universe, or a pretty flower, or a newborn baby child in your arms, or a person who seems to have been cured of a dangerous cancer, are NOT valid proofs of God's good hand. Just as His venegeful, demanding, stubborn, arrogant behavior, his insistence of all your prayerful attentions twice a day, and that you tithe or give of your life's precious energies (else you'll go to hell...) are so unGodlike, and completely undeserving of any such praise.

Does that explain and answer it well enough for you, finalmessage?? I mean, as to why I think and believe as I do?

Tell me exactly where I've run so afoul of reason, and am well off course, please.

Last edited by rifleman; 09-20-2011 at 12:30 AM..
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:36 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,379,377 times
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Default Now I'm confused!

Woodrow, I looked this up. Is it all wrong?

Where in the Quran does it say to kill the infidels? - Yahoo! Answers

Still just curious. When I did the search ("The Quran calling for the murder of infidels"), there were a number of other links and quotes in them that seem to fully support the idea that the Quran does indeed foment violence against "the infidel". In the form of warfare and/or murder or "removal".

So... as an "infidel" am I and my family safe from Fundamentalist Muslim Fanatics?

What gives?
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Old 09-20-2011, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,056 posts, read 30,550,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a slave of Allah View Post
I hope these questions will help us to achieve peace. by God's Will.

I just advice myself and my brothers and sisters here (non muslims especially) to get out of the problems and conflicts with us for a while (at least)
In other words, don't look too closely at what's going on. I can see where you'd appreciate that.
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