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Old 02-27-2016, 03:46 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am very well verse with verses 3:47, 16:40, 19:35 and 40:68, "BE and it is." This is because Allah is all-powerful.
Then you need to understand that "ruh" from Allah is also powerfull.. It is like Allah's Command "Be" and it is in existence (created)..

Quote:
There is nothing for you to brag and you are beating round the bushes. To me this topic of 'spirit' is not a complicated issue.
The topic of "spirit" was not a complicated issue to you but you were lost about "ruh". Each verse you had quoted had "ruh" in it that was translated as "spirit". The verse 17:85 of the Qur'an clearly explains what is "ruh" ("spirit"). You had no idea about it even after braggiing about reading the Qur'an 50 + times. I had to expose your ignorance about the Qur'an regarding "spirit" that you kept quoting in the cut and pasted verses.

Quote:
If you correctly explain "spirit" [as discussed here] as in the Quran, it will definitely be the same 'spirit' as the one I am explaining which is accepted universally in all religions and spiritualities.
All you had to do was quote the verse 17:85 from the Qur'an instead of looking for the Qur'anic explanation in the wikipedia. You failed, young man! I am very disappointed with your knowledge of the Qur'an.

Quote:
From the way it goes I believe you will produce a kindergarten explanation of what is spirit.
I am not interested in learning from you at all.
If you want to present your explanation [which I don't expect to be anything special], then do so and I will reconcile whether it agree with my universal understanding of 'spirit.'
The question was not about my explanation or your explanation but the explanation of the word "spirit" ("ruh") in the verses of the Qur'an, you had quoted, according to the Qur'an. That explanation is in the verse 17:85 that you were ignorant about.

Quote:
In fact, I can introduce a more higher level knowledge of 'spirit.'
Once we have agree [even if do not agree] note the concept of any permanent spirit of God, prophets or humans are ultimately illusory.
You will never learn about the Qur'an. Despite the explanation in 17:85, you are still in illusion that it is "spirit of God" as if it was essence of God when in reality it is "spirit from God" which is Command from God. This Command could be "Order" as in 'Be', "inspiration from God", "revelation from God" and so on. The verses of the Quran are full of that "spirit" to make you understand how to become spiritual kind of person so that you have spiritual happiness in your heart and mind rather than worldly and material happiness that does not last forever. My inspiration/ruh comes from Allah through the Qur'an and your inspiration/spirit comes from wikipedia. Big difference!
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Old 02-27-2016, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Then you need to understand that "ruh" from Allah is also powerfull.. It is like Allah's Command "Be" and it is in existence (created)..
It is not 'ruh' that is powerful. It is Allah that is all-powerful and his command "BE" is thus powerful.
Allah interact with humans and jinns via his Spirit.
"Spirit' in this case in the medium of communication in this context.

Quote:
The topic of "spirit" was not a complicated issue to you but you were lost about "ruh". Each verse you had quoted had "ruh" in it that was translated as "spirit". The verse 17:85 of the Qur'an clearly explains what is "ruh" ("spirit"). You had no idea about it even after braggiing about reading the Qur'an 50 + times. I had to expose your ignorance about the Qur'an regarding "spirit" that you kept quoting in the cut and pasted verses.

All you had to do was quote the verse 17:85 from the Qur'an instead of looking for the Qur'anic explanation in the wikipedia. You failed, young man! I am very disappointed with your knowledge of the Qur'an.

The question was not about my explanation or your explanation but the explanation of the word "spirit" ("ruh") in the verses of the Qur'an, you had quoted, according to the Qur'an. That explanation is in the verse 17:85 that you were ignorant about.
I am very well aware of the 17:85.
17:85 tells nothing of the real nature of the Spirit. It merely explain Allah communicate his commands via the Spirit.
It is like saying I communicate with other computers in the internet via electronic waves.
As implied in 17:85 Allah did not want to explain too much about the Spirit, perhaps Muhammad the authored of the Quran knew very little of the nature of the 'Spirit'.

Quote:
You will never learn about the Qur'an. Despite the explanation in 17:85, you are still in illusion that it is "spirit of God" as if it was essence of God when in reality it is "spirit from God" which is Command from God. This Command could be "Order" as in 'Be', "inspiration from God", "revelation from God" and so on.
The verses of the Quran are full of that "spirit" to make you understand how to become spiritual kind of person so that you have spiritual happiness in your heart and mind rather than worldly and material happiness that does not last forever. My inspiration/ruh comes from Allah through the Qur'an and your inspiration/spirit comes from wikipedia. Big difference!
Since this issue of 'Spirit' was raised, I have read > 10 articles relating to 'Spirit' from the Islamic perspectives. In comparison what you have expressed about 'Spirit' in Islam is of low quality. There were some articles of very high quality that introduced complex philosophical concepts in explaining the 'Spirit' in Islam. There are some who equate 'spirit' as 'essence' [not sperm btw].


Because their concept of 'Spirit' is limited to Allah [do not exists] and the Quran [authored by man or men of faith], they fall short of a complete explanation of what is essentially Spirit.
Just google to read some of them.
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Old 02-28-2016, 11:53 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is not 'ruh' that is powerful. It is Allah that is all-powerful and his command "BE" is thus powerful.
Allah interact with humans and jinns via his Spirit.
"Spirit' in this case in the medium of communication in this context.
As the verse 17:85 explains about "ruh", and you could not find it until I mentioned the verse, it is command from your Lord and mankind knows very little aout the command and thus the "ruh" ("spirit"). You or any other human being may try to explain "ruh" ("spirit") but it would not be complete explanation because it would be with very little knowledge. The only true and the best explanation is in the verse 17:85 that it is command from God.

Quote:
I am very well aware of the 17:85.
Yes, now, after I have guided you in its direction. I knew you wuld be bragging about being aware of it after I had made you aware of it. Pathetic!

Quote:
17:85 tells nothing of the real nature of the Spirit.
17:85 tells you that it is command of your Lord. Just as you do not know the nature of God, you do not know the nature of His command "ruh".

Quote:
It merely explain Allah communicate his commands via the Spirit.
You still do not get it. His command is "ruh" ("spirit"). The verse does not explain that command and spirit are two different things and one is communicated via the other but "spirit" is "your Lord's command". It is of course true that an atheist can't understand the Qur'an. You have just proven it.

Quote:
It is like saying I communicate with other computers in the internet via electronic waves.
You are making it up in your ignorance about "ruh". Human beings do understand electronic waves and sound waves used for communications very well. But "ruh" itself is not known so well by the human beings.

Quote:
As implied in 17:85 Allah did not want to explain too much about the Spirit, perhaps Muhammad the authored of the Quran knew very little of the nature of the 'Spirit'.
If Allah (or Muhammad) didn't want to expained about "ruh" too much, why are you telling me as to what exactly has been explained in 17:85?
No point in attributing your ignorance to Muhammad or blaming Allah for not explaining it too much. No amount of explanation would be enough to an atheist because he can't understand the Qur'an.

Quote:
Since this issue of 'Spirit' was raised, I have read > 10 articles relating to 'Spirit' from the Islamic perspectives. In comparison what you have expressed about 'Spirit' in Islam is of low quality. There were some articles of very high quality that introduced complex philosophical concepts in explaining the 'Spirit' in Islam. There are some who equate 'spirit' as 'essence' [not sperm btw].
Ruh can never be explained as "essence" of God from Islamic perspective(s) unless this is explained by you or a Muslim idiot. Both will not take into account 17:85 and 112:4.

Quote:
Because their concept of 'Spirit' is limited to Allah [do not exists] and the Quran [authored by man or men of faith], they fall short of a complete explanation of what is essentially Spirit.
Just google to read some of them.
I knew it! It was never an Islamic perspective but unislamic perspective.
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Old 02-28-2016, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
As the verse 17:85 explains about "ruh", and you could not find it until I mentioned the verse, it is command from your Lord and mankind knows very little aout the command and thus the "ruh" ("spirit"). You or any other human being may try to explain "ruh" ("spirit") but it would not be complete explanation because it would be with very little knowledge. The only true and the best explanation is in the verse 17:85 that it is command from God.


Yes, now, after I have guided you in its direction. I knew you wuld be bragging about being aware of it after I had made you aware of it. Pathetic!
Note I did a search for the word 'spirit' in the Pickthall's translation and the results with the detailed verses were listed, i.e.

"The word(s) "spirit" appears 23 time(s) in 21 verse(s) in Quran in Muhammad Pickthal translation."
To save time I did not reproduce all the relevant verses with the term "spirit". Besides 17:85 is not a significant meaning of what 'spirit' is really is.


Quote:
17:85 tells you that it is command of your Lord. Just as you do not know the nature of God, you do not know the nature of His command "ruh".
The 'Spirit' of Allah is the underlying support of Allah's command.
Generally a command, order is spoken with a certain 'spirit' i.e. spirit of love, anger, sincerity, etc.

Quote:
You still do not get it. His command is "ruh" ("spirit"). The verse does not explain that command and spirit are two different things and one is communicated via the other but "spirit" is "your Lord's command". It is of course true that an atheist can't understand the Qur'an. You have just proven it.

You are making it up in your ignorance about "ruh". Human beings do understand electronic waves and sound waves used for communications very well. But "ruh" itself is not known so well by the human beings.
I am very well verse with the concept of 'spirit' in the religious and spiritual sense.
I can fully understand the term 'spirit' in the Islam sense together with its limitations.

Quote:
If Allah (or Muhammad) didn't want to expained about "ruh" too much, why are you telling me as to what exactly has been explained in 17:85?
No point in attributing your ignorance to Muhammad or blaming Allah for not explaining it too much. No amount of explanation would be enough to an atheist because he can't understand the Qur'an.
Allah may have his reason for not explanation further or Muhammad could be ignorant of its real meaning.
That does not mean we should be ignorant of it.

Quote:
Ruh can never be explained as "essence" of God from Islamic perspective(s) unless this is explained by you or a Muslim idiot. Both will not take into account 17:85 and 112:4.

I knew it! It was never an Islamic perspective but unislamic perspective.
'Spirit' can be 'essence' if we explain it in the right context.
"Apple your eye" literally is absurd but if explain with its proper context then it is meaningful.


God can be explained in term of his 'spirit' or 'essence.'
Here is one quick reference;
The Essence of God: Article from The Good Seed


You can do a search in google on 'Islam' 'Allah' 'Essence'


"Muslim Idiot" as a fallible human being you are in no position to judge another Muslim.
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Old 02-29-2016, 04:23 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I did a search for the word 'spirit' in the Pickthall's translation and the results with the detailed verses were listed, i.e.

"The word(s) "spirit" appears 23 time(s) in 21 verse(s) in Quran in Muhammad Pickthal translation."
To save time I did not reproduce all the relevant verses with the term "spirit". Besides 17:85 is not a significant meaning of what 'spirit' is really is.
Continuum,

No other verse of the Qur'an or any other book explains what "ruh" is better than the verse 17:85 of the Qur'an. You won't find better explanation than that.

Quote:
The 'Spirit' of Allah is the underlying support of Allah's command.
Generally a command, order is spoken with a certain 'spirit' i.e. spirit of love, anger, sincerity, etc.
We are not talking here about spirit as people commonly understand but "ruh" as mentioned in the Qur'an.

Quote:
I am very well verse with the concept of 'spirit' in the religious and spiritual sense.
I can fully understand the term 'spirit' in the Islam sense together with its limitations.
It's all fine and good to claim so now but when challenged, you did not produce the verse 17:85 despite your claim to have read the Qur'an 50+ times.

Quote:
Allah may have his reason for not explanation further or Muhammad could be ignorant of its real meaning.
That does not mean we should be ignorant of it.
I don't think you still understand what spirit is.

Quote:
'Spirit' can be 'essence' if we explain it in the right context.
"Apple your eye" literally is absurd but if explain with its proper context then it is meaningful.
Just as nobody knows essence of God, nobody knows essence of "ruh" from God. For that reason, you can understand it only to the extent that God has explained it. The rest would be only conjecture.

Quote:
God can be explained in term of his 'spirit' or 'essence.'
Here is one quick reference;
The Essence of God: Article from The Good Seed
Looks like a Christian site and Christian ramblings. They admit that they do not understand it. They don't even know what is meant by "in our image".

Nobody knows essence of Allah.
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Old 02-29-2016, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,

No other verse of the Qur'an or any other book explains what "ruh" is better than the verse 17:85 of the Qur'an. You won't find better explanation than that.

We are not talking here about spirit as people commonly understand but "ruh" as mentioned in the Qur'an.

It's all fine and good to claim so now but when challenged, you did not produce the verse 17:85 despite your claim to have read the Qur'an 50+ times.

I don't think you still understand what spirit is.

Just as nobody knows essence of God, nobody knows essence of "ruh" from God. For that reason, you can understand it only to the extent that God has explained it. The rest would be only conjecture.

Looks like a Christian site and Christian ramblings. They admit that they do not understand it. They don't even know what is meant by "in our image".

Nobody knows essence of Allah.
Last line only:

Quote:
Nobody knows essence of Allah.
Which is what 17:85 is saying. Using just 3 reasonably good translations:

AND THEY will ask thee about [the nature of] divine inspiration. Say: "This inspiration [comes] at my Sustainer's behest; and [you cannot understand its nature, O men, since] you have been granted very little of [real] knowledge." - 17:85 (Asad)

They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)" - 17:85 (Y. Ali)

They will ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little. - 17:85 (Picktall)
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Old 02-29-2016, 12:35 PM
 
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Asad's is not literal translation but more like detailed understanding plus commentry. I like the way he explains how he arrived at his understanding of each verse or words in the verse.
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Old 02-29-2016, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Asad's is not literal translation but more like detailed understanding plus commentry. I like the way he explains how he arrived at his understanding of each verse or words in the verse.
I agree Asad is more of a commentary than a translation. But I find he comes closer to the meaning than what most literal translations do.
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Old 02-29-2016, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,

No other verse of the Qur'an or any other book explains what "ruh" is better than the verse 17:85 of the Qur'an. You won't find better explanation than that.

We are not talking here about spirit as people commonly understand but "ruh" as mentioned in the Qur'an.

It's all fine and good to claim so now but when challenged, you did not produce the verse 17:85 despite your claim to have read the Qur'an 50+ times.

I don't think you still understand what spirit is.

Just as nobody knows essence of God, nobody knows essence of "ruh" from God. For that reason, you can understand it only to the extent that God has explained it. The rest would be only conjecture.

Nobody knows essence of Allah.
As I had claimed 17:85 do not explain specifically what is 'spirit' in the Islamic context.


Your point is off when you said,
" it is command from your Lord and mankind knows very little about the command and thus the "ruh" ("spirit")."


Here is the translation by Abdel Haleem which in my opinion reflect the truer meaning of 17:85.

17:85 they ask you about the Spirit. Say, ‘The Spirit is part of my Lord’s domain. You have only been given a little knowledge.’


The Quran supposedly give little knowledge of the 'spirit' of Allah because it focus on religiosity and is of a very kindergartenish level of spirituality. The Eastern religions which has high emphasis of spirituality and thus the concept of spirituality is well explained in them. Similar high level explanation of what is spirit is well explained in philosophy.


Nobody knows essence of Allah.
First it is because God do not exists.
Where God is assume to exists, one can easily 'know' by inference [not experientially] the essence of Allah or any God.
The qualities of the essence of Allah is expressed in the Quran by Allah himself, i.e. All is all-powerful, all-knowing, present everywhere and whatever greatness possible.
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Old 02-29-2016, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Last line only:

Which is what 17:85 is saying. Using just 3 reasonably good translations:

AND THEY will ask thee about [the nature of] divine inspiration. Say: "This inspiration [comes] at my Sustainer's behest; and [you cannot understand its nature, O men, since] you have been granted very little of [real] knowledge." - 17:85 (Asad)

They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)" - 17:85 (Y. Ali)

They will ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little. - 17:85 (Picktall)
If you refer to humans cannot 'smell' 'feel' and experience the full essence of Allah [as in Quran] I can agree.


However one [a Muslim] can know the essence of Allah by inference from his creations and from his knowledge as given in the Quran.
Note my point in the above post.


I think Assad's translation 'inspiration' is more clearer and less ambiguous that the term 'command' used by Pickthall and the others.
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