Star Wars The Force Awakens Discussions: WARNING--SPOILER ALERT! (directors, scifi, Psycho)

[AFtrEFkt]

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Monoculture of Sci-Fi

Anytime we see successful movies people claim this. We see disaster movies hit in the 1970's with say Earthquake we see more like The Posedian Adventure. We see slasher films in the late 1970's with Michael Myers hit, we see more with Leatherface, Jason Vorhees, Freddy Kruger, et. all. We see the X-Men be a hit, we see Spider-Man, Hulk, Daredevil and Fantastic Four get fast-tracked and proposals for Batman and Superman reboots. Hollywood always does this.

He's referring more to how closely TFA mirrors ANH in its structure. It's also another exhibition of The Hero's Journey.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

The movie is unoriginal and a rehash.

Has anyone seen the various reboots of horror films or books? I mean do you think the 2017 How the Grinch Stole Christmas by Illumination Entertainment will be THAT much different from Ron Howard's The Grinch? Probably in that it is animation vs. live-action but the central plot is the same. What about the sequels and reboots to say Halloween or Poltergiest, you can't tell me those weren't original.

I did enjoy the movie. The VFX made me salivate. The story could have used a do-over, though. Within the first ten minutes alone, I was counting all the callbacks to ANH. It was literally a case of "1, 2, 3, 4..." That's the primary complaint we're hearing: that it rehashed too much. Which it did. And it was unnecessary to do so. JJ (or whoever was breathing down his neck) played it way too safe. I hope the next movie doesn't.


People aren't saying that themes and/or archetypes are rehashed (though there are), they're saying the script follows ANH too closely. The opening of TFA, for examples, virtually replicates the opening of ANH. Everyone can see that.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Dull Villains

They must not have seen Kylo Ren's conflicted monolauges about being compelled to the lightside of the force. Vader never had that talk himself. Anakin did while on the lightside about leaning towards the darkside but once he went villain, he never had that. General Haux was a much more loud and boastful non-Sith leader than any of the ones from the original movies, even great ones like Gran Moff Tarkin.

I didn't think Kylo was dull. I thought he was alright. He wasn't intimidating enough, though. He twice threw a tantrum with his torch-saber, which isn't very veteran Force user-like. I believe that was intentional.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Emotional connections

As I mentioned before while Kylo Ren was NOT in the same room as Han and Leia, you can feel the emotion in that based on non-beaten over your head subtext from a throwaway conversation about him AND the staredown when Han confronted Ben. I caught this on the first viewing.

The important thing is to keep Kylo evil and do a retread of "I've seen the Light! I'm redeemed!" That will induce laughter across the board.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Blowing up the Star Killer

J.J. Abrams explained this by stating he wanted kids to understand the story so he scripted it for kids. The first Star Wars (A New Hope) wasn't super complicated either. The only first Star Wars movie of a trilogy that was, was Phantom Menace and that was only one of its problems.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying TPM was complex? It's no more complex than any of the other movies. But this quote from The Huffington Post is accurate, nonetheless:

"To blow up the 120-km 'Death Star' in Star Wars, the rebels needed detailed plans for the base and a full-scale invasion force — as well as the supernatural targeting skills of the most powerful Force-user in the galaxy. To destroy the exponentially larger and better-protected 'Starkiller Base' in The Force Awakens, all that was needed was a janitor with no special skills, a few run-of-the-mill handheld explosives, a couple not very difficult X-wing blaster strikes, and some moxie."

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Millennium Falcon

Covered in another throwaway conversation that I caught the first time as well.

The "science of coincidence."

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Ren vs. Finn

Finn learned the shock staffs and that is fairly similar to the lightsaber in holding. That said, Finn was 0-2 in his saber fights.

Finn tried, and that counts for something. Also, Kylo had a nice wound on his side. It was distracting.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Rey learning the Force fast.

That is covered in when she touches the lightsaber. We don't know if she had a mind-wipe or not but she discovered the Force in that instance. Anakin never realized he had it until Qui-Gon told him he had it also. This time it was Maz Kanada who while not Force sensitive, knows the Force.

I didn't have an issue with this.

[Ralph_Kirk]

"To blow up the 120-km 'Death Star' in Star Wars, the rebels needed detailed plans for the base and a full-scale invasion force — as well as the supernatural targeting skills of the most powerful Force-user in the galaxy. To destroy the exponentially larger and better-protected 'Starkiller Base' in The Force Awakens, all that was needed was a janitor with no special skills, a few run-of-the-mill handheld explosives, a couple not very difficult X-wing blaster strikes, and some moxie."

This is a known issue with SF serialization.

In the first book, plucky Jeff Jones saves the world. By the forth novel, he's merely saving his boss's job.

[LordSquidworth]

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Tell that to the critics and fans that have given it 95% and 92% on rotten tomatoes respectively. Is it prefect, No but my 5-stars for it isn't exactly off base... I don't think it will drop past 85% on fan rating when all is said and done. Mind you Man of Steel which also is similar film when it comes to criticism (though more vocal due to the destruction and the Superman kills controversy) is a 56% critic rating and a 74% fan rating on rt.

^^ you're a total fanboy 😖

Which is okay. But it's okay to criticize and point out the lousy parts. Even fans do it.

When my girlfriend totally burns the steak do I tell her she did an awesome job? Of course not if I want a better steak next time. I throw it in the dogs bowl and tell her she ruined it. Next time I'll have a perfect steak.

[LordHelmit]

I haven't read any other posts in this thread just posting that I saw it and thought it was good, but meh. I think Adam Driver was a terrible choice for a super villain of Star Wars' caliber, and he came across as mad wimpy, just a regular guy that wears a mask just to look cool. And he wasn't even a good villain, he lost a light saber fight to a girl who's never used one before. Come on dude. Work it out. Special effects and scenery was cool, BB-8 was cute, and there was a lot of humor I liked. Overall pretty good.

[gunslinger256]

Originally Posted by LoveBeingAMommy

I thought Rey was possibly Luke's daughter. It'll be interesting. I'm still wondering why Luke wasn't in it more.

Rey can't be Luke's daughter. The writer's have done a good effort to cast doubt but remember, the Jedi's are like monks. They don't fool around. One of Anakin's weaknesses that lead him down the dark side was that he fell in love with Padme.

I'm surprised that so many people have forgotten this one important point.

I enjoyed TFA immensely and will probably have to watch it again because I totally missed the whole force/flash back scene because it went by so quickly and I couldn't absorb any of it.

Still the movie was very satisfying to me.

[gunslinger256]

Originally Posted by drishmael

Yeah, VII is essentially a rehash of IV

I think it was MEANT to be a reboot without actually redoing the movie. JJ Abrams managed to keep the old timers engaged with cues of the old franchise and added some new material to make it the next chapter. It was necessary to tell the story in viii, ix... and probably beyond. I doubt they will stop at a trilogy.

When you have a valuable franchise like star trek, james bond, terminator and star wars, you will milk it for all it's worth. don't forget the spin-off like xmen.

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by gunslinger256

I think it was MEANT to be a reboot without actually redoing the movie. JJ Abrams managed to keep the old timers engaged with cues of the old franchise and added some new material to make it the next chapter. It was necessary to tell the story in viii, ix... and probably beyond. I doubt they will stop at a trilogy.

When you have a valuable franchise like star trek, james bond, terminator and star wars, you will milk it for all it's worth. don't forget the spin-off like xmen.

I wouldn't call it a reboot at all; it didn't change any of the "history" created by the earlier movies.

But certainly they're not going to stop at a trilogy. There are spin-offs already in the works, such as something about Star Wars bounty hunters. There will continue to be Disney animated series. I'll be on my deathbed hoping to make it to the next premiere.

[mkpunk]

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

Is that 5/5 or 5/10?

My defensive posts and praise of the movie should clearly show it is the latter...

Originally Posted by cpg35223

Anybody can buy into the hype. But when you realize that they trotted out the freaking death star a THIRD time, that just tells me what an addled crowd the fans of this saga are. They'll watch anything as long as there's an x-wing fighter in the shot, even if it were obviously dangled on-screen using dental floss.

Let's see....robot being chased by the bad guys for a crucial piece of data...check...wandering through a desert planet...check...youngster who cultivates the force...check...planets blowing up...check...conflicted evil guy with Daddy issues running around in a mask...check. Yep, this is just about as unoriginal as it gets. A by-the-numbers money grab, a piece of hackwork, no matter how good the CGI is.

I mean, hell, they basically blew up the Death Star in an almost identical way. You'd think that, after the first two went kablooie, the Imperial engineers would have said, "You know, maybe we should redesign this thing so that some idiot in a glorified Piper Cub can't blow it to kingdom come with a lucky shot."

How do people just keep lapping this stuff up?

Here's what destroyed the Death Star space station in Episodes IV and VI

1. Proton torpedo shot from an X-Wing into an exhaust port.
2. Taking out the reactor core by the Millennium Falcon and an X-Wing after shutting down the protective shield.

Here's what took out the Starkiller Planet in Episode VII:

• Taking out a thermal oscillator by an X-Wing after shutting down the protective shield.

So yes, there is a similarity in what was used to destroy planets (though this one destroyed an entire system rather than a solo planet) and having to shut down a shield before destroying it. YES, it is insanely similar but as I mentioned before people don't really complain about the repetitive deaths of a Freddy Kruger, Michael Myers or Jason Voorhees.

In the first Star Wars movies of a trilogy, we are always introduced to a young jedi. In Episode IV it was Luke, in Episode I it was Anakin and in Episode VII it's Rey. Why reinvent the wheel when it works. It's not like Captain America: The First Avenger which wasn't as successful compared to most Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies while Captain America: The Winter Soldier completely changed tones and became one of the better performing Phase Two movies with a higher rotten tomatoes rating (from 79% to 89%.) With Star Wars however, the repeated plot works especially when it is 15-20 years in between the rehashes. That's an entire generation of fans that didn't experience the past in theaters. Without the Special Editions, I wouldn't have seen Episodes IV, V & VI in theater.

The big bad in Episodes IV-VI didn't have "daddy issues." Vader didn't, Anakin did in a way but not with a true father but rather a father figure in Obi-Wan Kenobi who Anakin felt inferior in some ways to (along with overly critical.) Kylo Ren, has a similar inferiority complex but to what he feels his grandfather did and being "conflicted" with the lighter side of the force. Also Kylo Ren could remove his mask and did so several times which entirely humanized him. It's unknown if in the long-term it's a good thing or not.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

He's referring more to how closely TFA mirrors ANH in its structure. It's also another exhibition of The Hero's Journey.

So what's wrong with back to basics. It made a sub-par Star Wars when they strayed from the formula (The Phantom Menace.)

I did enjoy the movie. The VFX made me salivate. The story could have used a do-over, though. Within the first ten minutes alone, I was counting all the callbacks to ANH. It was literally a case of "1, 2, 3, 4..." That's the primary complaint we're hearing: that it rehashed too much. Which it did. And it was unnecessary to do so. JJ (or whoever was breathing down his neck) played it way too safe. I hope the next movie doesn't.

I think of it as the Superman Returns of Star Wars Episodes IV-VI. Not in quality, IMO it was better than Revenge of the Sith which in quality was better than Return of the Jedi, but in that it was a love-letter to those films. That said, The Force Awakens is a much better retelling of its source movie than Superman Returns was to the Richard Donner Superman movies and far less polarizing.

As for playing it safe, I don't think Episode VIII will, the biggest thing we saw in this one was not changing the existing universe's set ways and not making any scathing X-Men like inconsistencies. With J.J. Abrams being on a producer despite Rian Johnson and then Garreth Edwards taking over as director, we should see an expansion on it with new takes but much like the originals, a guiding light keeping it from being a contradiction. NOTE: before anyone says it, Luke and Leia didn't know they were related until a year after kiss before the Battle of Hoth so that isn't really a contradiction.

People aren't saying that themes and/or archetypes are rehashed (though there are), they're saying the script follows ANH too closely. The opening of TFA, for examples, virtually replicates the opening of ANH. Everyone can see that.

Kind of, not really. If anything it was a melding of Episode IV and Episode II. The one thing that nobody talks about that JJ was able to do that wasn't done by Lucas is that the Stormtroopers are a much more credible threat like the Clones were. They shot and wounded a Wookie. At best in the original trilogy they shot Leia and inept Rebel troops. In this they are entirely legitimate and don't bop their heads on doors.

I didn't think Kylo was dull. I thought he was alright. He wasn't intimidating enough, though. He twice threw a tantrum with his torch-saber, which isn't very veteran Force user-like. I believe that was intentional.

To be fair, Anakin (note, NOT Vader) did the same thing in regards to the Sand People in Episode II. The catch is, Kylo Ren did that to computer screens.

The important thing is to keep Kylo evil and do a retread of "I've seen the Light! I'm redeemed!" That will induce laughter across the board.

It depends on how they do it and why they do it. The board is open, they just need to make the right moves, especially when Disney has the license to print money by continually doing the movies right. Disney knows this and have seen considerable failures within the last few years, John Carter, The Lone Ranger, The Good Dinosaur, etc. They know they cannot half-ass this.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying TPM was complex? It's no more complex than any of the other movies.

A New Hope was nuanced, not so complex. The Phantom Menace was complex, especially for a first episode. It wasn't exactly a straight forward movie, especially being over a trade dispute. Politics existed in A New Hope but not out in the open.

But this quote from The Huffington Post is accurate, nonetheless:

The same can be said about the other two Death Stars. They never established who the spies getting the plans were. Maybe they were janitors. We'll know for the first Death Star in a year with Rogue One.

The "science of coincidence."

Perhaps but that is common of most movies when it comes to similar deus ex macinas.

Finn tried, and that counts for something. Also, Kylo had a nice wound on his side. It was distracting.

I am not denying Finn's trial but he was a bit of a second rate male Leia from Episode IV in this movie. Not that he was a damsel in distress, but rather a semi-credible fighter.

I didn't have an issue with this.

You didn't the article you linked did and those were the claims I was refuting.

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

This is a known issue with SF serialization.

In the first book, plucky Jeff Jones saves the world. By the forth novel, he's merely saving his boss's job.

I don't think so. It's about the same to me, just the space station is now a whole planet rather than being moon-sized. Plus it destroyed entire star systems in time it took to destroy each individual planet. Imagine destroying the Alderan system rather than just Alderan. That's what the Starkiller did versus the Death Star. The stakes were raised.

Originally Posted by LordSquidworth

^^ you're a total fanboy 😖

Which is okay. But it's okay to criticize and point out the lousy parts. Even fans do it.

I know, I just don't find super faults in this movie to be quite honest. As I said, it is nit-picky that it is a rehash of stuff from Episode II here, Episode IV here, Episode VI here and Episode V there. It didn't ruin my enjoyment of being a 9.8/10. That said, it still isn't my favorite movie of the year though it will be my most re-watched movie in theaters.

When my girlfriend totally burns the steak do I tell her she did an awesome job? Of course not if I want a better steak next time. I throw it in the dogs bowl and tell her she ruined it. Next time I'll have a perfect steak.

That's a bit different. All I can do is know in the next chapter to maybe be a little more realistic. FYI, I would say I can't eat it. I do it with my parents if it is under-cooked or over-cooked beyond edible and would even with an SO. Not being cruel about it but rather "Hey, try not to do this next time." I even do it with myself.

[gentlearts]

All I know is nothing will ever be as good as the first Star Wars. We had never seen anything like that before, and it was thrilling.
I skipped all the prequels, and I enjoyed this new one, but nothing will ever match the original.

[owl6969]

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

He's referring more to how closely TFA mirrors ANH in its structure. It's also another exhibition of The Hero's Journey.

Yeah this was one of the things that was like old and the same.