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I'm impressed by the knowledge and thinking on this thread applied to understanding Albanian culture. Wow. (how do I give you all reputation points?)
You're all correct -- Albanian history (and consequent mindset) is confusing. The flashpoint in the Kosovo conflict was thought to be Milosevic's screaming racism against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo (who were largely Muslim and well-educated, unlike Serbs, who are Orthodox with a high rate of illiteracy). Even though Albania itself is a chunk cut out of the former Yugoslavia, Albanians in Albania felt a deep commitment to ethnic Albanians living in Kosovo. Kosovo was part of that Russian science experiment known as "Yugoslavia", but official atheism didn't 'take', nor did fealty to communism as a system.
I helped lead an emergency relief organization assisting refugees from Kosovo who were streaming into Europe at that time. Our over-arching principle was to help everyone irrespective of religion or ethnicity, and to force them to share resources with each other. Before the conflict they did, and neighborhoods and towns were peacefully multi-ethnic.
But Albanians had learned to trust no one (that might explain something about Albanians in NY). They had been betrayed by the Russians, the Chinese, and all other ethnicities in the Slavic states. Europe turned their back on them, although the Slavic states were technically in Europe, and fellow Muslims didn't help either. It was only when Americans had enough of seeing explosions in Sarajevo on the evening news, that Clinton sent Gen. Wesley Clark to prosecute that war (which he did, and goes down in history as the only U.S. general to lose not a single soldier in combat. That's a fact, jack.)
By then, Albanians had retained a seething resentment and disillusionment towards authority figures. The only local leaders who had ANY authority and leadership were, believe it or not, Roman Catholic priests. They led villages from the bombed-out basements of churches, and organized and managed with a lot of selfless dedication. As a result, some Albanians did convert to Catholicism, although they were not proselytized. Everyone was basically in survival mode.
Some wondered why Albanians moved to certain Italian neighborhoods, like in the Bronx. My guess would be, and this is a total guess, the Catholic Church, and Catholic relief organizations with a nod from the Vatican, initially sponsored those families financially and every other way. Probably some Albanian kids got scholarships to Catholic schools, etc. After the first wave of immigrants settled, their relatives came in, some of them raw from betrayal and conflict, and hammered into their kids's heads the credo "Trust No One".
So, upshot is -- for Albanians, Italians are good, Catholics are good, and Americans are good (we were the good guys that brought peace), so Italian-American Catholics they trust. Everyone else they just might happily send to he11.
(@stevej64, I live in that area of Maine, and no, the factory workers were French Canadians. French is still the lingua franca of the older generation, particularly those who worked in the mills.)
Sounds pretty interesting. I hope a lot of albanians converted to christianity. It is funny how all over the world christians go to help the people. Did you see the christians who went to afganantian to help the people there get killed my the taliban?
BIRD
Article in time mag yesterday confirmed what I said.I the early 1900s Biddford Maine had a population of Albanian workers.My father came to the USA in 1917 and worked there with other albanians.He then moved to NYC
That's interesting, Steve. All I can tell you is -- I live there, and I don't know a single Muslim living in the area (a big population of Somali Muslims in Portland, however), nor do I know any ethnic Albanians in Southern Maine, at least any that identify themselves as such. Any ethnic Albanians either have moved on, like your dad, or assimilated into the general "white" culture, to be replaced by the dominance of French-speaking Mainers. They are quite a presence in Biddeford, traditionally mill or factory workers, very traditionally Catholic and 'clannish', with ties of course to Canada but also France. Also strongly present in mill towns like Lewiston, Calais, etc.
Please tell your dad hi from York County -- he and his friends evidently took their Albanian flag with them to NY.
Yeah thats true, but I went to school with some as well, when theres large groups of them, they tend to try a 'hostile take over' of schools and neighorhoods.
I finished my high school years in Australia, but I can shed some light on this.
I went to a high school of about 700 students and with a student body that was about 50% foreign born (including myself). There were several ethnicity based cliques in the school: Balkan (Albanians, Bosniacks, and Serbs), Indians and Pakistanis, Russians (with one or two Ukrainians), Africans, Chinese, Vietnamese, foreign born Arabs (mostly Iraqis and a token Persian), Australian born Lebanese, and Pacific Islanders.
The two worst groups were the Lebanese and the Balkan groups. The Asians and Africans mostly kept to themselves. The foreign Arabs were friendly with the Lebanese, but almost never got involved in their beefs. The Russians sometimes backed up the Balkan kids, but usually were alright. I would say that 90% of the fights or almost fights in that school involved those two groups. They would start fights with individuals and with other ethnic groups all the time.
I do have to admit the Balkan group was more entertaining of the two. I am not sure if the Albanians in the Bronx do this, but they tend to merge insults and swears into a kind of super-swear. I had my problems with them (as did many others), but it really took away from the legitimate fears I had of being jumped to overhear one of the start shouting, "What f--k you think you do, punk f----t?! Hey! You look me when I talk, b---h s--t! Don't f--king laugh, c--k c--t! I'll f--king kick your ass, c-m t-ts."
I'll mention a semi-humorous incident I had with the Balkan group when I was 17. I was walking through the yard when I see one of younger members of the group attempt to relieve a friend's little brother of his lunch money, so I intervened. I walked up behind him and grabbed the little prick by the collar of his shirt and dragged him away while telling him to leave my friend's little brother alone. All of a sudden I hear "What f--k is s--t?" and there are about eight or nine of the Balkan guys with one of the Russians standing off to the side. I let go of the kid and I watch as they come over to me. I had history with some of these guys (I will not get into it) and I knew this probably was not going to end well. One of them comes up and shoves me and the rest quickly surround me. "Surround" is too loose of a word. More like they press themselves up against me like a pervert on the subway. I have the kid's older brother and Russian in my face threatening me. I realized that if I were to throw the first punch, I would be swarmed and beaten pretty badly. I also realized that if I were to apologize or show any sort of fear, they would never stop harassing me and taking away my money and cigarettes (in other words, I would have become the high school version of a prison *****). I did the only thing I could reasonably do. I played possum. I just stood there with a blank, stoic look on my face and did not respond to anything they had to say nor did I flinch when they they would jab their fingers into my chest. After about a minute or two of threats and having that ******** poking me, he concluded that I was standing up to them without fear and declared that I had (in his words) "nice balls" and they walked away and left me unscathed.
I finished my high school years in Australia, but I can shed some light on this.
I went to a high school of about 700 students and with a student body that was about 50% foreign born (including myself). There were several ethnicity based cliques in the school: Balkan (Albanians, Bosniacks, and Serbs), Indians and Pakistanis, Russians (with one or two Ukrainians), Africans, Chinese, Vietnamese, foreign born Arabs (mostly Iraqis and a token Persian), Australian born Lebanese, and Pacific Islanders.
The two worst groups were the Lebanese and the Balkan groups. The Asians and Africans mostly kept to themselves. The foreign Arabs were friendly with the Lebanese, but almost never got involved in their beefs. The Russians sometimes backed up the Balkan kids, but usually were alright. I would say that 90% of the fights or almost fights in that school involved those two groups. They would start fights with individuals and with other ethnic groups all the time.
I do have to admit the Balkan group was more entertaining of the two. I am not sure if the Albanians in the Bronx do this, but they tend to merge insults and swears into a kind of super-swear. I had my problems with them (as did many others), but it really took away from the legitimate fears I had of being jumped to overhear one of the start shouting, "What f--k you think you do, punk f----t?! Hey! You look me when I talk, b---h s--t! Don't f--king laugh, c--k c--t! I'll f--king kick your ass, c-m t-ts."
I'll mention a semi-humorous incident I had with the Balkan group when I was 17. I was walking through the yard when I see one of younger members of the group attempt to relieve a friend's little brother of his lunch money, so I intervened. I walked up behind him and grabbed the little prick by the collar of his shirt and dragged him away while telling him to leave my friend's little brother alone. All of a sudden I hear "What f--k is s--t?" and there are about eight or nine of the Balkan guys with one of the Russians standing off to the side. I let go of the kid and I watch as they come over to me. I had history with some of these guys (I will not get into it) and I knew this probably was not going to end well. One of them comes up and shoves me and the rest quickly surround me. "Surround" is too loose of a word. More like they press themselves up against me like a pervert on the subway. I have the kid's older brother and Russian in my face threatening me. I realized that if I were to throw the first punch, I would be swarmed and beaten pretty badly. I also realized that if I were to apologize or show any sort of fear, they would never stop harassing me and taking away my money and cigarettes (in other words, I would have become the high school version of a prison *****). I did the only thing I could reasonably do. I played possum. I just stood there with a blank, stoic look on my face and did not respond to anything they had to say nor did I flinch when they they would jab their fingers into my chest. After about a minute or two of threats and having that ******** poking me, he concluded that I was standing up to them without fear and declared that I had (in his words) "nice balls" and they walked away and left me unscathed.
Wow! I never realized how diverse Australian schools or Australia was for that matter, lol. But yes, that is what goes on here in the Bronx in certain schools mostly Lehman, Columbus, Pelham Prep HS, DeWitt Clinton and St Raymonds high schools in the Bronx, all have large Albanian populations, and their share of gang issues not just with Albanians, also between Blacks and Dominicans. I would say in most of those schools, the only white students are either of Albanian, Italian or Irish descent, at least when I went to Clinton, the only white students I knew either had an Irish, Italian or an Albanian last name, I never knew what an Albanian last name was until I went to Clinton and met some...I'm Irish btw... And the rest of the students in those schools being Black, Dominican, Puerto Rican and some Cambodians, Vietnamese and Palestinians. But each school has their own gangs, most are based on race or ethinicity, and a lot of the fights happen after school either on the train or in the park, and sometimes they get deadly, because nobody is there to break it up. When I was in Clinton, there was so much tension between almost every group it was unbelievable, Clinton also has a sizable Arab population(Mostly Palestinian) they had beef with the Blacks and Trinitarios. They were actually allied with the Albanians and this Dominican set DDP. But Clinton was a very dangerous school, I had to be in at least 30 fights in 1 year of being there, MOST of them I didn't start...LOL.
Wow! I never realized how diverse Australian schools or Australia was for that matter, lol. But yes, that is what goes on here in the Bronx in certain schools mostly Lehman, Columbus, Pelham Prep HS, DeWitt Clinton and St Raymonds high schools in the Bronx, all have large Albanian populations, and their share of gang issues not just with Albanians, also between Blacks and Dominicans. I would say in most of those schools, the only white students are either of Albanian, Italian or Irish descent, at least when I went to Clinton, the only white students I knew either had an Irish, Italian or an Albanian last name, I never knew what an Albanian last name was until I went to Clinton and met some...I'm Irish btw... And the rest of the students in those schools being Black, Dominican, Puerto Rican and some Cambodians, Vietnamese and Palestinians. But each school has their own gangs, most are based on race or ethinicity, and a lot of the fights happen after school either on the train or in the park, and sometimes they get deadly, because nobody is there to break it up. When I was in Clinton, there was so much tension between almost every group it was unbelievable, Clinton also has a sizable Arab population(Mostly Palestinian) they had beef with the Blacks and Trinitarios. They were actually allied with the Albanians and this Dominican set DDP. But Clinton was a very dangerous school, I had to be in at least 30 fights in 1 year of being there, MOST of them I didn't start...LOL.
How did the irish fair there? When I was growing up the irish had a rep of being good fighters. dont know if it is just that way.
Location: Red Hook Brooklyn-winter Derby Line Vermont-summer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdinmigration
That's interesting, Steve. All I can tell you is -- I live there, and I don't know a single Muslim living in the area (a big population of Somali Muslims in Portland, however), nor do I know any ethnic Albanians in Southern Maine, at least any that identify themselves as such. Any ethnic Albanians either have moved on, like your dad, or assimilated into the general "white" culture, to be replaced by the dominance of French-speaking Mainers. They are quite a presence in Biddeford, traditionally mill or factory workers, very traditionally Catholic and 'clannish', with ties of course to Canada but also France. Also strongly present in mill towns like Lewiston, Calais, etc.
Please tell your dad hi from York County -- he and his friends evidently took their Albanian flag with them to NY.
I also don't recall meeting anyone of specific Albanian ethnicity in Biddeford or anywhere in Southern Maine but that is only within the last 30 years or so. Somalian Muslims in Portland however,that's a different story.
How did the irish fair there? When I was growing up the irish had a rep of being good fighters. dont know if it is just that way.
Yeah its still that way lol. Clinton was mostly Irish American but you do have a few off the boat Irish kids with the brouges. But most of the time, we didn't bother anyone, of course you get some bad apples, but most of the time we got along pretty well with pretty much everyone, and yes we did have a pretty good reputation for fist fighting lol...But one group most of us had a problem with was with this Bloods set that was in Clinton, I could recall quite a few fights between almost 90% of the Irish students and them, and it wasn't just the Irish it as basically everyone, Italians, Dominicans, Albanians, Palestinans all got into it with them. The Bloods seeked out victims to rob/jump outside of the school, I remember once the Irish-American/Irish students got together with a group of about 6 or 7 Dominican students and some had baseball bats, brass knuckles and a few had switch-blades which i didn't know about, and went after the whole set of about 40 of them and they just gave it to them, it was crazy one of Clintons worst gang fights that year, I seen the whole thing, a few of the Irish students walked up behind them to make it look like there was only going to be 10 and they said stuff to provoke them like "Hey p-ssy" and both groups yelled semi racist things,and then when they went after them other ones jumped out of bushes and everywhere it was like an ambush the Bloods were overmatched by far and they definitely thought twice about messing with the Irish students and many of them got suspended, i didn't want to get involved because of many reasons, the Irish kids who were invovled, many were my friends but even so, were a bad crowd , but they went on to other smaller groups and there were much smaller groups like there weren't many Asians and everyday they attacked them it was really messed up....DeWitt Clinton is one of the worst schools, after that fight there had to be at least 5 or 6 other MAJOR blowouts between other groups including, Blacks and Dominicans, Blacks and Albanians, Albanians and Dominicans, Italians and Albanians, Cambodians/Vietnamese and Blacks. It was a rough school, thank god I was only there a year and a half, made some good friends though
Last edited by Coolchris4000b; 08-10-2010 at 02:18 PM..
I would say the largest white population in DeWitt Clinton was probably Irish, second Albanian and third Italian. There was MANY Irish-Americans in that school compared to other schools, due to being in a large Irish-American areas, its in the area of Bedford Park, Bainbridge, Woodlawn, Van Cortlandt, and Kingsbridge Terrace
@FRANK_CARBONNI im albanian & this is offensive where you come from ? theres gangs everywhere so what if their is an albanian gang ? it new york ur gonna see that man stop talkin ****en **** cuz ur gonna get ur ass jumped makin up **** like that so u can all take ur boul**** & take it to ur ****en mom cuz i dont want to **** hear it! annnddd we dont talk like dat we dont curse that much its just some of us & i bet if i go where u live a imma hear ppl cursing their mouths off so dont act all ****en innocent dum****
Last edited by abi<3; 03-14-2011 at 07:21 PM..
Reason: spelling errors
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