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Old 04-27-2012, 12:11 PM
 
Location: New York
2,005 posts, read 4,272,070 times
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You nailed it on the head. It is trinity of culture, family and morals that determine the success of the Child. The fact that they are high on the SES scale is the result of the holy trinity. The sociologists all have it dead wrong attributing educational success to wealth. Neighborhoods like Bayside have successful school districts because these are ethnic neighborhoods with immigrant or first generation ethnic families headed by a Father and a Mother like God intended.

Money is sterile and will not make a kid smart or motivated. In fact rich kids often suffer from a lack of motivation, poor work ethic, fall into a the pitfalls of vice and are spiritually soft. How many sullen rich kids from the mid-west have we seen all slouched on the train suffering from incoherence and a hatred of their own cultural inheritance?

When I hire people I prefer first generation children of immigrants. They are smart, sharp and well motivated. They benefit from the deposit of cultural wealth that resides in tradition. They have not yet been spiritually ruined by American cultural subversion. It is their moral uprightness that drives success. Not money.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
Its not race or ethnicity or SES. Its culture.
Look at the facts for asian immigrants, non-english speaking. You will find, despite rumors to the contrary on this board, that the average educational level of the parents is not significantly different from the population at large.

Look at Stuy - about 70% asian and 30% white, with a sprinkling of black and hispanic. 35% qualifying for free lunch.

Studies at Princeton also show no simple link between asian students' success and parental education or income.

Its no mystery though, its culture and family coherence and positive role models (even if they aren't educationally successful). Cultural changes are had to effect though, especially when facing headwinds of self-serving or entrenched ideas.
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Old 04-27-2012, 01:33 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,296 posts, read 4,512,244 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samyn on the green View Post
You nailed it on the head. It is trinity of culture, family and morals that determine the success of the Child. The fact that they are high on the SES scale is the result of the holy trinity. The sociologists all have it dead wrong attributing educational success to wealth. Neighborhoods like Bayside have successful school districts because these are ethnic neighborhoods with immigrant or first generation ethnic families headed by a Father and a Mother like God intended.

Money is sterile and will not make a kid smart or motivated. In fact rich kids often suffer from a lack of motivation, poor work ethic, fall into a the pitfalls of vice and are spiritually soft. How many sullen rich kids from the mid-west have we seen all slouched on the train suffering from incoherence and a hatred of their own cultural inheritance?

When I hire people I prefer first generation children of immigrants. They are smart, sharp and well motivated. They benefit from the deposit of cultural wealth that resides in tradition. They have not yet been spiritually ruined by American cultural subversion. It is their moral uprightness that drives success. Not money.
Again, when Bayside was not Asian, it was still one of the best school districts in Queens. You can't look at this through today's lens only. So the reason is not necessarily culture.

Bayside had a large African American section, it was also Jewish and Catholic up until the 90s.

It has only been more Asian in the past 10 years or so.

In addition, the Specialized High Schools were not always majority Asian. I have posted before about my graduating class (1980) at Brooklyn Tech. It was 40 percent black and about 12 percent Hispanic. It's not culture that determines educational success, it's VALUES. Also, a higher SES helps people to have access to better education (i.e., summer programs, test prep, tutors, etc.).

I can't see eliminating it from the equation.
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:36 PM
 
2,079 posts, read 3,234,249 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gk90 View Post
These schools were good to begin with, even before the influx of Asians--District 26 was one of the top rated in NYC over 30 years ago. Of course there are many stellar Asian students but the issue is not just ethnicity, it's also socioeconomic background. Asian families don't automatically make schools better--just look at the schools around the Chinatowns in Manahttan and Flushing.

It's true that one reason that financially comfortable and savvy Asian families chose this neighborhood was the schools and also true that they've made a positive contribution to the neighborhood and school system.

Here are a couple of articles discussing the Asian "model minority" myth in education. The takeaway is that we're doing Asian students a real disservice by assuming that they're all smart, and we're also holding up a false model for success for other minorities.
Unraveling the Model Minority Myth of Asian American Students | Education.com
The Model Minority Myth
Being of Irish descent and the daughter of a father who graduated from MIT (undergrad and grad) and a mother who went to Radcliffe (Harvard) for her graduate studies, and siblings and nephews and a niece who went to Cornell, Yale, Princeton and Stanford, I can say that they did NOT have the kind of ruthless aggression that I have seen with many Asian students and their parents. I find it sickening and that they are raising kids who are quite often totally unbalanced and lack good social skills or kindness for others and are focused on financial success and status primarily and not on bettering the human race. Of course, this is a generalization but I am very sorry I feel it is true and due to the cultural differences I see in Asian families who are in the Ivy and MIT track versus those who are not. My family was focused on, yes, doing well in their careers but also have had a far greater concern for the betterment of society as a whole and not simply their own selfish interests. Call this prejudice but I think it is not. I think it is an indictment of the Asians I have seen in many areas of professional work: Not looking towards the betterment of others but only themselves and their families. The arrogance and self centeredness can be unbelievable and very disturbing indeed. Tell me I am wrong and why. I don't think I am: It is what I have sadly observed. (And, worse yet, they often have no idea what I am talking about! Not a clue.)
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:26 AM
bg7
 
7,698 posts, read 7,629,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post
Again, when Bayside was not Asian, it was still one of the best school districts in Queens. You can't look at this through today's lens only. So the reason is not necessarily culture.

Bayside had a large African American section, it was also Jewish and Catholic up until the 90s.

It has only been more Asian in the past 10 years or so.

In addition, the Specialized High Schools were not always majority Asian. I have posted before about my graduating class (1980) at Brooklyn Tech. It was 40 percent black and about 12 percent Hispanic. It's not culture that determines educational success, it's VALUES. Also, a higher SES helps people to have access to better education (i.e., summer programs, test prep, tutors, etc.).

I can't see eliminating it from the equation.

"It's not culture that determines educational success, it's VALUES." - what do you think culture is? Its a set of values, actions and behaviors. Its not genetically determined, its what you chose to do. Perhaps you mean its "not ethnicity".

"Again, when Bayside was not Asian, it was still one of the best school districts in Queens. You can't look at this through today's lens only." Yes - and there were many other shcool districts that were good 35yrs ago and which are now awful, especially in Brooklyn. Its not the bayside School district or any other that is magic, its the population that sustains it or not.

And your 1980s number is a 1980s number. Have you looked at the asian figures for the NYC population in the 1980s? Not that the percentage is even large nowadays, but still. Todays figures for SHS -majority asian. Majority, when asians are the smallest minority in the city system. Its not genetic (ie its not due to race), its cultural. Anyone can get there if they choose to. Its also not a secret recipe, its right there for anyone.
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:45 AM
C8N
 
1,119 posts, read 2,372,057 times
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I may get crucified for what about to say but this is my opinion.
Many asians when it comes to education is about practice, practice and practice until you nail it down. Its more about discipline. Are asians smarter? No, absolutely not but they are very well disciplined on the average. Because of this discipline, they tend to perform well in school. But due to this robotic nature, the chances are, originality may be somewhat lacking. You will find asian improving on a item but you are not going to find too many asians that has invented the wheel in the modern day.
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Old 07-20-2012, 08:03 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
2,898 posts, read 4,930,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C8N View Post
I may get crucified for what about to say but this is my opinion.
Many asians when it comes to education is about practice, practice and practice until you nail it down. Its more about discipline. Are asians smarter? No, absolutely not but they are very well disciplined on the average. Because of this discipline, they tend to perform well in school. But due to this robotic nature, the chances are, originality may be somewhat lacking. You will find asian improving on a item but you are not going to find too many asians that has invented the wheel in the modern day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha Anne View Post
Being of Irish descent and the daughter of a father who graduated from MIT (undergrad and grad) and a mother who went to Radcliffe (Harvard) for her graduate studies, and siblings and nephews and a niece who went to Cornell, Yale, Princeton and Stanford, I can say that they did NOT have the kind of ruthless aggression that I have seen with many Asian students and their parents. I find it sickening and that they are raising kids who are quite often totally unbalanced and lack good social skills or kindness for others and are focused on financial success and status primarily and not on bettering the human race. Of course, this is a generalization but I am very sorry I feel it is true and due to the cultural differences I see in Asian families who are in the Ivy and MIT track versus those who are not. My family was focused on, yes, doing well in their careers but also have had a far greater concern for the betterment of society as a whole and not simply their own selfish interests. Call this prejudice but I think it is not. I think it is an indictment of the Asians I have seen in many areas of professional work: Not looking towards the betterment of others but only themselves and their families. The arrogance and self centeredness can be unbelievable and very disturbing indeed. Tell me I am wrong and why. I don't think I am: It is what I have sadly observed. (And, worse yet, they often have no idea what I am talking about! Not a clue.)

You both are right on.
I've seen it happening, on my industry (IT) and wifey's too (Auditing). It's a very interesting social phenomenon. I commend Asian people for being so disciplined, focused, and goal oriented. But there needs to be a balance between excelling in school and being a caring, socially adept member of society.
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Old 07-20-2012, 08:09 AM
bg7
 
7,698 posts, read 7,629,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C8N View Post
I may get crucified for what about to say but this is my opinion.
Many asians when it comes to education is about practice, practice and practice until you nail it down. Its more about discipline. Are asians smarter? No, absolutely not but they are very well disciplined on the average. Because of this discipline, they tend to perform well in school. But due to this robotic nature, the chances are, originality may be somewhat lacking. You will find asian improving on a item but you are not going to find too many asians that has invented the wheel in the modern day.

Yea, academic success is not a mystery. English language learners who take 10 past years ELA Grade 8 exams on the 10 weekends before they take their actual Grade 8 ELA exam, and who look at what type of questions they are going wrong on with a parent, do better than a kid starting with the same intelligence and in the same circumstances who didn't practice. No mystery.

You do not need to be brilliant to academically succeed.
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Old 07-20-2012, 09:07 AM
 
2,079 posts, read 3,234,249 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by likeminas View Post
You both are right on.
I've seen it happening, on my industry (IT) and wifey's too (Auditing). It's a very interesting social phenomenon. I commend Asian people for being so disciplined, focused, and goal oriented. But there needs to be a balance between excelling in school and being a caring, socially adept member of society.

There was an op-ed essay in the NY Times last year, written by two Korean American young women physicians, and it was the most arrogant piece of drivel I had read in quite some time. The topic was about the laziness of Americans compared to the discipline of (themselves), Korean and other Asian American people and how they move ahead into competitive careers and achieve so much, etc. versus the loser Americans who are lazy and uninformed, etc. The thing that got me was the openly contemptuous language being used. My father, the MIT engineer, would never in a million years have addressed anyone that way and he also didn't think he was so special. No, he felt gratitude and good luck at getting a scholarship to MIT as the son of Irish working class immigrants, not this arrogance and foolish pride of these two writers.

Well, I taught for a while in Korean evening school for Korean American kids and never in my life had I been cheated of my pay but yes, the woman who owned the school and called herself a big "Christian" and was waxing on about her pastor, etc. actually cheated me of my pay and I had to threaten I would report her to the licensing board with proof she had done so and she got all scared and gave me my correct pay. But then she later sent me my tax return with the wrong amount on it (more than I made) and I gave up and paid taxes on income I never made. One story? No, sadly, I think that treating others as human beings who deserve proper treatment is not something that comes naturally in many Asian cultures. I do not think that non-Asian people, to be clear about this, are any better as human beings than anyone else - we humans are all "wretches", in my opinion, we had slavery here for hundreds of years, for heaven's sake, but the Asians are not accustomed to the notion of fair play, IMO. I have a brother who is a customs broker doing the importing end of things and he gave up on working with any Asian nation whatsoever because they all tried to do it by cheating and dishonesty and he could not do a simple, straight business transaction. This is something that will take a few generations to wash out of people who are close to the immigrant generation in their Asian heritage. It's just the way it is.
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Old 07-20-2012, 10:48 AM
C8N
 
1,119 posts, read 2,372,057 times
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Martha Anne, you are pinning an entire continent based on some experiences you have had.
That's a very dangerous thing to do. I hope you will retract some of your statements and pinpoint to an individual rather than the whole continent.
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Old 07-20-2012, 12:09 PM
 
10,605 posts, read 20,734,839 times
Reputation: 8150
Quote:
Originally Posted by samyn on the green View Post

When I hire people I prefer first generation children of immigrants. They are smart, sharp and well motivated. They benefit from the deposit of cultural wealth that resides in tradition. They have not yet been spiritually ruined by American cultural subversion. It is their moral uprightness that drives success. Not money.
I'm curious. It just so happens, after the fact, that you find out you have hired first generation children of immigrants? Or you are asking them illegal questions in the interview in order to ascertain this status of theirs?

Examples of illegal interview questions: Are you a US citizen? Where were you born? Where were your parents born? Are you an American? What kind of name is that?
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