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You all are looking at this from an adult standpoint. Look at it from the girl's perspective.
Your father (first male role model, etc. etc...) says to you that just because your skin is darker you are NOT less attractive than your sister.
Is the child going to see it that way? Is she not going to wonder if her father sees white as more beautiful? Come on, folks.
@ rep: I often say things others don't. People on this thread are pretending not to follow my point.
No, they aren't. Until you wrote this post, your point looked a little like sour grapes over a black man marrying a white woman, because--get this--we aren't seeing the story from a black woman's perspective. Thanks for clarifying what you were trying to say. It is food for thought. My bi-racial niece has dated only white boys, but her two older black brothers (from my BIL's first marriage) are married to black women.
No, they aren't. Until you wrote this post, your point looked a little like sour grapes over a black man marrying a white woman, because--get this--we aren't seeing the story from a black woman's perspective. Thanks for clarifying what you were trying to say. It is food for thought. My bi-racial niece has dated only white boys, but her two older black brothers (from my BIL's first marriage) are married to black women.
I really thought that my point was obvious - some people got it, at least.
Why would you jump to the conclusion of sour grapes lol? Wow.
You are correct - you aren't looking at this from a black woman's perspective - so how can you assume one way or the other?
I really thought that my point was obvious - some people got it, at least.
Why would you jump to the conclusion of sour grapes lol? Wow.
You are correct - you aren't looking at this from a black woman's perspective - so how can you assume one way or the other?
I can't! That was exactly my point. Once you explained more clearly what the girl might be thinking from her specific point of view as a young woman of color, it made sense. I've never been black so that perspective did not occur to me.
I didn't exactly jump to the conclusion of sour grapes, but I wondered. That POV among SOME black women does exist, and you know it does. I am not isolated in an all-white world. It's an old cliche, lol, but I really do have black women friends that I socialize with and have for years, and we discuss racial issues openly.
You said you say things that others don't always say, Mocha, and so do I.
Look, I liken it to stairs for handicapped people. My father lost his feet/lower half of his legs in WWII. Walked on prosthetics but it was still difficult and sometimes painful. There was no ADA, no handicapped parking spots, no ramps to get in buildings when I grew up. We had to check every place we went for stairs and parking and walking distance. You don't think twice, I'm sure, before walking up a set of stairs to a doorway as to whether it's a barrier to the disabled.
It's the same thing in a lot of cases for white people. We often miss the racist roadblocks until someone points them out because they don't affect us. It might be frustrating when it's so plain to you, but that's a reality that's better treated with education than with anger, which gets everyone nowhere. Going off a bit on a tangent here from the topic, I know.
You all are looking at this from an adult standpoint. Look at it from the girl's perspective.
Your father (first male role model, etc. etc...) says to you that just because your skin is darker you are NOT less attractive than your sister.
Is the child going to see it that way? Is she not going to wonder if her father sees white as more beautiful? Come on, folks.
@ rep: I often say things others don't. People on this thread are pretending not to follow my point.
Oh, I'm sorry to have misinterpreted your initial posts on the subject. And I understand where you're coming from with that post. However, when I and my husband talked to our daughters after what happened, my youngest responded well. Especially on the points on how color doesn't matter, making a point that I and my husband are two completely different colors, but it doesn't matter. And she verbally acknowledged that I, with my pale skin, found her father to be beautiful (he later told me jokingly that he hated being described as "beautiful"). She took that point in.
I know my youngest isn't totally out of the woods yet (regarding the situation) and that this probably won't be the last time something similar to this happens to her as she grows (I really hate the thought) but at this point I'm more worried about my eldest daughter. My youngest is back to being who she has always been - happy and buoyant. My eldest isn't.
I mentioned before that shortly after my kids told me what happened, I interacted with my aunt. She showed no remorse and came out with the "different times" excuse. It becomes exacerbated when I think about how what happened wasn't a slip of the tongue - a singular moment where she made a mistake. We've all made mistakes in a single moment. It happened over 3 visits (not about telling my youngest daughter about her skin tone - but favoring my eldest daughter).
I'm just curious -- in what way was she showing favoritism? I'm not trying to excuse her behavior, mind you, I'm just truly curious what constitutes showing favoritism? Since you weren't there when it happened, I'd be interested in how the favoritism was perceived by your daughters.
I'm just curious -- in what way was she showing favoritism? I'm not trying to excuse her behavior, mind you, I'm just truly curious what constitutes showing favoritism? Since you weren't there when it happened, I'd be interested in how the favoritism was perceived by your daughters.
From what I was told, it started with compliments regarding beauty (although my aunt didn't say anything denigrating at this point to my youngest daughter). She was exclusively complimenting my eldest daughter on her skin, hair, eye color, etc. And then with things like helping out around the house . . . my aunt was laying it on my youngest without telling my oldest to help out with chores. But my youngest told me that her older sister helped her with stuff like that even though her aunt didn't tell her to do it. And then with stuff like treats - such as watching TV. Usually at our house one child gets some time to watch the channel she wants (granted the content is suitable for their ages) and then the other can watch the channel they want. But apparently my aunt would just give the airtime to my eldest (again, my oldest would share screen-time with my youngest at her own behest).
And my eldest was able to piece it all together when my aunt said what she did to my youngest. My youngest didn't immediately put it all together (the favoritism mixed with the comment). She was just upset by the comment in isolation.
I see it as possibly less about race, and more about beauty. She favors what she sees as beauty.
I would agree. The term "racist" seems to imply that the individual has dogmatic beliefs about racial superiority or inferiority. That is probably not the case with her aunt.
Rather, the comments were probably, as you stated, just made to reinforce what she sees as beauty. She is also not alone as a certain number of black people also have those exact same perceptions of beauty- though they may not admit to it. The black people who hold these beliefs about beauty are not dogmatic racists.
I can't! That was exactly my point. Once you explained more clearly what the girl might be thinking from her specific point of view as a young woman of color, it made sense. I've never been black so that perspective did not occur to me.
I didn't exactly jump to the conclusion of sour grapes, but I wondered. That POV among SOME black women does exist, and you know it does. I am not isolated in an all-white world. It's an old cliche, lol, but I really do have black women friends that I socialize with and have for years, and we discuss racial issues openly.
You said you say things that others don't always say, Mocha, and so do I.
Look, I liken it to stairs for handicapped people. My father lost his feet/lower half of his legs in WWII. Walked on prosthetics but it was still difficult and sometimes painful. There was no ADA, no handicapped parking spots, no ramps to get in buildings when I grew up. We had to check every place we went for stairs and parking and walking distance. You don't think twice, I'm sure, before walking up a set of stairs to a doorway as to whether it's a barrier to the disabled.
It's the same thing in a lot of cases for white people. We often miss the racist roadblocks until someone points them out because they don't affect us. It might be frustrating when it's so plain to you, but that's a reality that's better treated with education than with anger, which gets everyone nowhere. Going off a bit on a tangent here from the topic, I know.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your perspective.
Yes, black women hold this belief. I won't go into why - I do get it, even though I don't agree. There are many, many layers.
I do get frustrated and I know that I shouldn't. There ARE many racists on this board (Current Events forum was rife with them at one point - I haven't been over there in months), it's really easy to jump to conclusions. I do apologize for doing that here.
Thanks for your perspective - refreshing as always!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Portland222
Oh, I'm sorry to have misinterpreted your initial posts on the subject. And I understand where you're coming from with that post. However, when I and my husband talked to our daughters after what happened, my youngest responded well. Especially on the points on how color doesn't matter, making a point that I and my husband are two completely different colors, but it doesn't matter. And she verbally acknowledged that I, with my pale skin, found her father to be beautiful (he later told me jokingly that he hated being described as "beautiful"). She took that point in.
I know my youngest isn't totally out of the woods yet (regarding the situation) and that this probably won't be the last time something similar to this happens to her as she grows (I really hate the thought) but at this point I'm more worried about my eldest daughter. My youngest is back to being who she has always been - happy and buoyant. My eldest isn't.
Re-reading, I didn't express myself well. I do occasionally assume that everyone knows what I'm thinking and sort of start thoughts in the middle lol. Drives my husband nuts! I apologize if I offended you.
I'm so sorry that this happened. Your daughters unfortunately will face this again, from many people. *Sigh* I wish it were not so. There is a documentary called "Dark Girls" and "Light Girls" that explore this very topic. It is too mature for them now, but you may want to check it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic
I would agree. The term "racist" seems to imply that the individual has dogmatic beliefs about racial superiority or inferiority. That is probably not the case with her aunt.
Rather, the comments were probably, as you stated, just made to reinforce what she sees as beauty. She is also not alone as a certain number of black people also have those exact same perceptions of beauty- though they may not admit to it. The black people who hold these beliefs about beauty are not dogmatic racists.
Hold on. Blacks cannot be racist against ourselves. When Blacks hold this belief, it is a form of self hatred. I will not go into how colorism originated in the first place.
And I do not understand the reference to black people here. Yes, blacks feel this way. Pointing the finger and yelling "B-b-but blacks do it too!" does not make what the aunt did any less wrong.
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so that perspective did not occur to me.
When Blacks hold this belief, it is a form of self hatred. I will not go into how colorism originated in the first place.
