What pieces of the puzzle does Pittsburgh lack to be a great city? (Lebanon: middle school, pros and cons)

[Devout Urbanist]

Originally Posted by Katiana

In past eras, the public schools were the great equalizer. Growing up as I did in Beaver Falls, a lot of my friends' parents were born in the US to poor foreign-born immigrants shortly after immigration to the US; you heard the story many times over that their parents didn't speak English until they went to school. To put it in some perspective, these are people who were born in the early years of the 20th century. Most of them graduated from high school themselves, though their parents may not have had more than a few years (if that) of education.

There are a few problems with this narrative. First of all, it is entirely anecdotal. Secondly, many of the students in today's public schools were not born to immigrants. The comparison isn't really valid. People who love the immigrant narrative often seem to know nothing about the efforts that were made to assimilate these groups into society by philanthropists and the government. It's always the same dumb, ahistorical jive. "My ancestors worked hard! Why can't these people?" Nothing but racial chauvinism. Please go read up on Hull House in Chicago. Finally, public schools often worked in the past because there was a strong tax base to support them. The decline of public schools in most major cities began largely with middle-class flight from city school districts. The problem is poverty.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by Devout Urbanist

There are a few problems with this narrative. First of all, it is entirely anecdotal. Secondly, many of the students in today's public schools were not born to immigrants. The comparison isn't really valid. People who love the immigrant narrative often seem to know nothing about the efforts that were made to assimilate these groups into society by philanthropists and the government. It's always the same dumb, ahistorical jive. "My ancestors worked hard! Why can't these people?" Nothing but racial chauvinism. Please go read up on Hull House in Chicago. Finally, public schools often worked in the past because there was a strong tax base to support them. The decline of public schools in most major cities began largely with middle-class flight from city school districts. The problem is poverty.

Well, since you have the holy grail, go fix everything. See, I could say that without hurling a bunch of personal insults. Not to mention, you completely missed my point! You don't think these kids born to immigrant parents were poor? Think again? Have you ever been to Ellis Island to see the statistics? Contrary to what a lot of people like to think, it wasn't the doctors, lawyers and other professionals who were leaving the countries of Europe. It was the poor and the uneducated.

[pman]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Yes, there is evidence of this. How do you offer both AP classes and Vo-Tech classes when you have maybe 50 kids per grade level? You can't. You offer what the "middle" needs and the needs of the others go unfulifilled.

sounds nice but our niece is graduating from jenkintown high (195 students) with a good education. this is the problem with the technocrat approach (you need 1000 students so let's make districts based on that assumption). it simply isn't true and when technocrats are empowered it becomes dangerous. I'd rather see the state work to lower the back end cost of education. does a small district need an HR department or can payroll, HR, etc be outsourced (and is it already?) which effectively let's the district take advantage of economies of scale where they matter.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by pman

sounds nice but our niece is graduating from jenkintown high (195 students) with a good education. this is the problem with the technocrat approach (you need 1000 students so let's make districts based on that assumption). it simply isn't true and when technocrats are empowered it becomes dangerous. I'd rather see the state work to lower the back end cost of education. does a small district need an HR department or can payroll, HR, etc be outsourced (and is it already?) which effectively let's the district take advantage of economies of scale where they matter.

The 1000 students in a high school is a number a school superintendent gave me. It's pretty hard to be "comprehensive" with fewer students. That is only 250 students per class. Sure there are some outliers, there always are.

Here are the stats from Jenkintown Middle/Senior School:
Jenkintown Middle/High School in JENKINTOWN, PA | Best High Schools | US News

Frankly, having worked for small businesses without HR departments, I don't recommend it.

[Devout Urbanist]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Well, since you have the holy grail, go fix everything. See, I could say that without hurling a bunch of personal insults. Not to mention, you completely missed my point! You don't think these kids born to immigrant parents were poor? Think again? Have you ever been to Ellis Island to see the statistics? Contrary to what a lot of people like to think, it wasn't the doctors, lawyers and other professionals who were leaving the countries of Europe. It was the poor and the uneducated.

Actually, you missed my point. I'm well aware that most of the European immigrants who came here were poor. I should point out that there were many problems with public schools back then. Truancy, youth gangs, and neighborhood violence were not uncommon in European ethnic enclaves in those days. There are, however, two crucial differences between then and now, which I already mentioned: strong support for the assimilation of these groups as evidenced by the establishment of settlement houses and the fact that cities had more middle-class residents to fund public schools. If poverty isn't the primary culprit in the failure of these schools what is it? What is the difference between the European immigrants of yesteryear and today's poor city residents? Please tell me.

[nei]

Originally Posted by Katiana

I'm willing to take your word for the first para, but I'd like to see some stats, e.g. "trust but verify". You know NYC very well.

Here ya ago. I couldn't find an overall ethnic %

Townsend Harris School: 56% Asian, 7% Black, 13% Hispanic, 23% White, 51% Free/Reduced Lunch
Brooklyn Technical School: 60% Asian, 9% Black, 8% Hispanic, 20% White, 59% Free/Reduced Lunch
Brooklyn Latin School: 39% Asian, 27% Black, 15% Hispanic, 16% White, 70% Free/Reduced Lunch

stats from:

Brooklyn Technical High School - insideschools.org

Brooklyn Latin School is a new magnet school, with slightly lower admission standards, but I think considered very good. 2/3rds of Brooklyn Tech School students have at least one parent born outside the US. There was some of other link that said Townsend was 75% Jewish 100 years ago, and most of the Jews would have had to been recent immigrants.

There's no gentrifier ethnicity, and not all whites are gentry. Many might be residents who's families have been in the city for a couple of generations. Others whites could be immigrant kids. I found a statistic that 49% of whites in NYC have at least one parent not born in the US, and also 42% of blacks in 2000, though the public school population would be different. Hispanics and Asians would obviously be much higher. Anecdotally, of the people I met from NYC magnet schools, maybe a slim majority were children of immigrants (many of the whites were Russian), and the rest mostly white "natives", ranging from middle-class to upper-class.

School performance correlates well with SES. In that respect your second paragraph is correct. I'm not so sure ethnicity has as much to do with it, when SES is not a factor, e.g. a wealthy white, black, Asian, or Hispanic child will do equally as well (with individual differences, of course).

I thought I saw stats showing schools with mostly middle-class blacks often did worse than ones with poorer Asians, and to a lesser extent, whites. Hard to find overall numbers. From what I remember back home, the black kids tend not to do particularly well in my school, it seemed a lot cared less about school. Immigrant children often do a bit better than native children of the same SES, I think. Again, I would need to find numbers.

I never connected magnet schools with gentrifiers, I was puzzled why you were.

Originally Posted by Devout Urbanist

First of all, it is entirely anecdotal. Secondly, many of the students in today's public schools were not born to immigrants. The comparison isn't really valid.

There are some NYC public schools were nearly the entire student population is children of recent immigrants. Lots of different nationalities, except non-immigrant American. There it might be a valid comparison.

[nei]

Originally Posted by Katiana

The 1000 students in a high school is a number a school superintendent gave me. It's pretty hard to be "comprehensive" with fewer students. That is only 250 students per class. Sure there are some outliers, there always are.

Mine had 600 students, 130 per class. We had a decent number of electives and AP classes, but some less popular ones (say, AP Economics and AP Calculus BC) weren't offered.

[pman]

Originally Posted by Katiana

The 1000 students in a high school is a number a school superintendent gave me. It's pretty hard to be "comprehensive" with fewer students. That is only 250 students per class. Sure there are some outliers, there always are.
Here are the stats from Jenkintown Middle/Senior School:
Jenkintown Middle/High School in JENKINTOWN, PA | Best High Schools | US News
Frankly, having worked for small businesses without HR departments, I don't recommend it.

I see, specific examples are "outliars." the reason there aren't more jenkintown isn't because the model didn't work but because technocrats arbitrarily decided that bigger was better just as you are arguing, then they went about destroying neighborhood schools and creating education factories far from student homes. jenkintown is a holdover from the old era, there is no bus system, students live within walking dsitance. you keep selling comprehensive as if it's needed for a good education. I don't find your argument for HR compelling but it's not really important since it was just a suggestion. payroll is not a necessary function and it may make a lot of sense for a small company (usually does) to contract with a paychex type of place rather than have their own system. the reality is you need to find a balance that works and that is going to differ from place to place. there are a lot of jenkintowns out there but there are also places that are smaller, poorer. perhaps more important than school size is tax base mix.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by pman

I see, specific examples are "outliars." the reason there aren't more jenkintown isn't because the model didn't work but because technocrats arbitrarily decided that bigger was better just as you are arguing, then they went about destroying neighborhood schools and creating education factories far from student homes. jenkintown is a holdover from the old era, there is no bus system, students live within walking dsitance. you keep selling comprehensive as if it's needed for a good education. I don't find your argument for HR compelling but it's not really important since it was just a suggestion. payroll is not a necessary function and it may make a lot of sense for a small company (usually does) to contract with a paychex type of place rather than have their own system. the reality is you need to find a balance that works and that is going to differ from place to place. there are a lot of jenkintowns out there but there are also places that are smaller, poorer. perhaps more important than school size is tax base mix.

How many of those high school students do you think walk to school? I'd bet darn few; the vast majority are probably driving and/or driven to school. And where is it written that going 5 miles (about the distance my kids traveled to HS) is outrageous? Farm kids have always traveled distances to school. "Neighborhood schools" is known as a code phrase for opposition to school integration. Please note I have stated I am not a proponent of huge schools and/or school districts.

Here is an article that gives some pros and cons of smaller/larger schools.
How Important Is School Size? - Defining Your Ideal School | GreatSchools

[nei]

Originally Posted by Katiana

How many of those high school students do you think walk to school? I'd bet darn few; the vast majority are probably driving and/or driven to school.

I'd think many for the ones walking distance (< 1 mile). Only the oldest kids (seniors, maybe a few juniors) can drive to school, parents aren't always available to drive kids.