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Old 10-14-2012, 02:57 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
11,218 posts, read 6,528,993 times
Reputation: 10795

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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
Selling Big Mortality Numbers to Sell Flu Vaccine

There was only one deadly influenza pandemic in the last 100 years that killed the young and healthy in great numbers and that was the 1918 Spanish Flu. It turns out that bacterial pneumonia is what killed most people, young or old, in the 1918 pandemic. Today, antibiotics would have prevented most of those deaths.26

Counting Influenza Deaths & A Whole Lot More
In 2003, CDC employees also used a convoluted statistical modeling scheme to "estimate" that 36,000 people die from influenza in the U.S. every year. Again, they counted not just influenza death cases but also threw in other respiratory, circulatory, cardiac and pulmonary deaths they thought might have been associated with influenza.31
And they got away with it.
NVIC Vaccine News
True. Secondary infection from pneumonia is the big killer when it comes to influenza, something that could be prevented today. Hyperthermia and dehydration could have also played a role, but those too can be dealt with. It is unlikely that we would have another significant influenza outbreak with such terrible results. Scare tactics and dogma. There is money to be made in the flu area. There are a group of scientists out there who are scaring up grant money for "bird flu" research. Grant money is big issue in science and can cause undue influence.

 
Old 10-14-2012, 07:51 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,017 posts, read 102,674,652 times
Reputation: 33083
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
Parents, you can get the latest info on vaccines here.
National Vaccine Information Center

Some links for exemption info at Vaccinerights.com and vaclib.org


How to Get Vaccine Exemptions - YouTube

Things are getting very crazy in California. They are now requiring parents to seek permission from a doctor for an exemption. That means you have to pay for an apptmt. and he/she gets to decide if your worthy of an exemption or not.
NVIC Vaccine News
NVIC Vaccine News

Find out what your rights are in your state.
Good. States should make it as difficult as possible for parents to get exemptions from immunizations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post
True. Secondary infection from pneumonia is the big killer when it comes to influenza, something that could be prevented today. Hyperthermia and dehydration could have also played a role, but those too can be dealt with. It is unlikely that we would have another significant influenza outbreak with such terrible results. Scare tactics and dogma. There is money to be made in the flu area. There are a group of scientists out there who are scaring up grant money for "bird flu" research. Grant money is big issue in science and can cause undue influence.
Oh, so it's OK for someone to get influenza and then pnuemonia, b/c "today" the post-flu pneumonia can somehow be "prevented"? You want to tell me how? I mean, there is a pnuemonia vaccine, which does protect against some strains of pnuemonia (23 I believe), but that still leaves a lot of bacteria out there to cause pnuemonia.
 
Old 10-14-2012, 08:46 AM
 
4,743 posts, read 3,734,318 times
Reputation: 2482
[MOD CUT]

Conspiracy theorist is used as a term to categorize a group of people who have put faith/belief over reality. Who will leverage the best of human fallacy (cherry pick, ad hominimum, straw man) to make 0 points. Then argue that everyone who disagrees is either a :Sheep for believing the evidence (they are all against us after all) and/or paid by those as part of the conspiracy.

The program with conspiracy theorist is that is a religion. That the evidence/reality is just over the ridge. Please ignore the mountain, if you will, because I have found this molehill that really confirms my world view.


My view is not that I do not know the world in total. I am a man of skepticism. A man of logic. A man who puts quantitative evidence first.

if you show me a monkey study, and with two clicks I determine it to be discredited. You earn no favor with me. In fact, you cement yourself as a conspiracy theorist because a confirmation bias theorist would seek to believe a discredited monkey story at all cost. IF IT IS DISCREDITED IT MUST BE THE EVIL PHRAMA Companies.


if you show me a study that links the two, and with one click I note that the entire world calls it bull$hit. You earn no favor with me.


I've seen accusations of big pharma hiding information (well they wouldn't call it hiding, they just didnt' see it as relevant as the FDA did). I don't know where you have found evidence of falsification regarding the vaccine market. Not sure your source there. Hard for me to beleive anyone would go through the effort (lots of vaccines, lots of manufactures share a total pediatric worldwide is 10B compared to 550B pharma market)


All drugs take risks. Yet thats a another fallacious statement to point out that we don't know its perfect, so we shouldn't do it. Nothing is perfect. If you took that course of action you would never drive, fly, bike, anything. You would be afraid of public water (and always boil) on the small chance something went wrong down the line.

The amount of people hurt by vaccines is almost a rounding error compared to the lives saved. That is why we are able to have these federal programs (and other countries too) without issue. If people were routinely hurt (i'm thinking smallpox, which isn't the safest one out there) we would attempt to not use it.



One thing I agree on

But the one thing most people can rely on to help protect themselves is the age old tool called common sense.

and common sense says that we get to live in world without smallpox, polio, and the endless variety of plagues. I get to not worry that my son will not fear going to the pool. If my son is bit by a rabid dog, I will know it isn't a death sentence.

But for those who support conspiracy theories [Don't WANT TO GET PERSONNEL HERE], it seems common sense doesn't go very far.


and for Pharma and their laws. If you want a pharma company to manufacture and produce a unprofitable product (most vaccines are commodities), you better bet the lawyers will say 0 risk. Thats just life. Goverments sign up for this, because its often the only way to get the drugs. Otherwise, all full steam ahead on Lipitor.

Last edited by Ibginnie; 10-14-2012 at 08:58 AM.. Reason: discuss the topic, not other posters OR the moderator
 
Old 10-14-2012, 08:48 AM
 
4,743 posts, read 3,734,318 times
Reputation: 2482
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDusr View Post
Comments like this. He has stated such in this thread multiple times.
I support requiring vaccines -at least certain ones - (forcing) if you want to do things like

attend school
attend day care

that kind of stuff, otherwise - go ahead. avoid them.

Opting out shouldn't be an option, due to the risk to the system overall
 
Old 10-14-2012, 08:53 AM
 
4,743 posts, read 3,734,318 times
Reputation: 2482
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
The level of hypocrisy and irony is thick enough to cut with a knife by claiming some impropriety involving funding of Wakefield's research, while ignoring that pharmaceutical companies spend hundreds of Millions annually to pay for the safety research on their own products, or the hundreds of Millions spent on television, magazine and journal advertising and direct marketing of their poisons, and the ten's of Millions in political contributions to secure sweetheart deals on the floor of congress, and the revolving door they keep active between executive positions on their staffs and the important figures operating the regulatory agencies tasked with policing them .... and you raise the big red flag of 1/2 Million contributed to Wakefield in the face of all that? Half a Million wouldn't cover 1 executive Christmas bonus check at Merck, for God's sake.

[MOD CUT]
1) pharma companies are required by law to finance clinical trials to prove the drugs are ready. WHat do you want, all clinical trials financed by the GOVT. then you would be gripping about that.


2) You seem to be mixing your oranges with your apples. I would argue that Pharma companies do push hard, and sometimes may play fast and lose with things that can make them money. But noting to people that cutting corners on Lipitor or another 5B drug also means that the companies would fight to prop up an industry worth 10B worldwide by 11-12 companies.

Dude, there is no JUICE in that squeeze. i'm surprised you can't see that.

and a 5-10B annual drug has a lot more incentive to play fast and lose than a 10B market divided among 100's of drugs.

sheesh
 
Old 10-14-2012, 09:02 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
11,218 posts, read 6,528,993 times
Reputation: 10795
[quote=suzy_q2010;26500219]
Quote:


If you do not have antibodies to HIV, it means you were probably not infected. Not everyone who is exposed "catches" it.
Exactly. You were not infected because the innate immune system and possibly other general parts of your adaptive dispatched the HIV before it could infect you. The HIV interacted with the immune system, no question. But it did not infect you. Once a pathogen overruns the local or innate (general) immune system and infects you, then your body produces a adaptive response, which is where your systemic response comes in along with antibody and memory cell production. This is basic immunology and not my opinion:

How Pathogenic Viruses Work - Lauren Sompayrac - Google Books

(page 11)

Your body responds with the adaptive, specific immune system when the pathogen gets past your innate immune system and threatens infection. That doesn't happen with everything you come in contact with. Infection is fairly rare. Again, this where you develop a fever because you have been infected; it is also where the adaptive immune system takes over and develops antibodies. That's why you don't develop antibodies in the above example. It's why you need to inject or otherwise properly deliver a vaccine at a high enough dose to produce an adaptive response. You are inducing an infection because you want the response. Of course, vaccines contain either killed or attenuated viruses (or DNA analogs), so you don't usually develop a real infection, but your body needs to think that the innate immune system has been overrun and you have been infected. Infection and its related adaptive immune response are relatively rare. When you give 26 vaccines in one day, your body believes it was infected with 26 different pathogens at once. That is not a normal biological condition.

Also, a graduated immune response is not my opinion. The body responds more vigorously to a more serious infection, especially a blood or deep tissue infection. Fevers are usually higher with blood infections, white blood cell counts are generally higher when infection is more severe. This very basic human physiology, it's not my opinion. If your body's response was not relative to the threat level, you would die, or you would feel sick all the time. When you inject a large number of pathogens directly into the deep muscle and they enter the blood stream your body responds accordingly.

Last edited by MJJersey; 10-14-2012 at 09:27 AM..
 
Old 10-14-2012, 09:06 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
11,218 posts, read 6,528,993 times
Reputation: 10795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Good. States should make it as difficult as possible for parents to get exemptions from immunizations.



Oh, so it's OK for someone to get influenza and then pnuemonia, b/c "today" the post-flu pneumonia can somehow be "prevented"? You want to tell me how? I mean, there is a pnuemonia vaccine, which does protect against some strains of pnuemonia (23 I believe), but that still leaves a lot of bacteria out there to cause pnuemonia.
I didn't say that. What I said was we probably would not see another 1918 style influenza outbreak that results in so much morbidity and mortality. There are other ways to prevent influenza, like vitamin D (which you and suzy dismissed for no good reason); handwashing; exercise; general health upkeep and others that don't involve injecting a pathogen and preservatives directly into your body.
 
Old 10-14-2012, 09:12 AM
 
17,751 posts, read 15,660,469 times
Reputation: 6391
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisFromChicago View Post


One thing I agree on

But the one thing most people can rely on to help protect themselves is the age old tool called common sense.
Its not enough. Common sense is a fixed target. If you can make something appear reasonable, then you are in like flint. Common sense works very well in everyday life, but its just useless with a determined and well funded interest group. Our money system is a classic example of common sense just not cutting it. You will get it all wrong.

It can help as you say but we have to assume things are not always as they appear.
 
Old 10-14-2012, 09:20 AM
 
4,743 posts, read 3,734,318 times
Reputation: 2482
And fruit prevents rickets


Now your venturing into some la la land where mankinds problem was that he wasn't taking care of himself, and that vacines and drugs are merely not needed because all thati s needed is to buy all your food from Whole Foods and eat natural and you will be protected

good luck with that


Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Actually it is a factor. Immune deficiencies were a big factor in the plagues of the past. In WWII they we surprised to find so much undernourishment with the recruits


Wonder Bread History - Invention of Wonder Bread
Several advances in the nutrition and baking process were made during this decade. In 1941, Wonder Bread was involved in a government-supported move to enrich white bread with vitamins and minerals to improve nutrition. Known as the “quiet miracle,” bread enrichment nearly eliminated the diseases Beriberi and Pellagra and brought essential nutrients to people who previously could not afford nutritious foods. At the same time Wonder introduced a revolutionary new way of baking that eliminated holes in bread.

Jamestown mortality was quite high due I am certain to lack of vitamin C. All they needed was pine needle tea.


I don't think its a cure all, but I am not sure the past can be assumed that the population always had a full defense.
 
Old 10-14-2012, 10:02 AM
 
17,751 posts, read 15,660,469 times
Reputation: 6391
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisFromChicago View Post
And fruit prevents rickets


Now your venturing into some la la land where mankinds problem was that he wasn't taking care of himself, and that vacines and drugs are merely not needed because all thati s needed is to buy all your food from Whole Foods and eat natural and you will be protected

good luck with that
Its amazing to me that I can give a calm and reasoned example with historical references, and yet still wind up with the response so dazzlingly ridiculous. I will not even address your flaming straw man.


There is a reason why we need more than trust and common sense, Clyde.

Now we know for example that its common sense that mercury is toxic, right?

So are you suggesting that just use the ole noggin in your silly think like a stooge mentality.



Utterly refuting the silly argument of common sense, its specific knowledge of its activity that is the argument. Mercury is toxic. Its common sense.

CDC - FAQ Thimerosal (Ethylmercury) - Vaccine Safety
Thimerosal contains a different form of mercury called ethylmercury. Studies comparing ethylmercury and methylmercury suggest that they are processed differently in the human body. Ethylmercury is broken down and excreted much more rapidly than methylmercury. Therefore, ethylmercury (the type of mercury found in the influenza vaccine) is much less likely than methylmercury (the type of mercury in the environment) to accumulate in the body and cause harm.

A healthy skepticism seems appropriate given just one example of a few oops of the past

The Forgotten History: the forgotten hero and the forgotten evil « kofegeek

Thomas Midgley

It took decades even after it was known because of industry profits.

Of course one reason why we have more infectious diseases is because of needles.

'Self-Destructing' Syringes Force Safer Injection Practices | PBS NewsHour

They used to use glass syringes which could be sterilized but when then plastic was cheaper so..but hey, its common sense to trust what's best.



So that might be the reason for skepticism because the truth can be blocked for decades.

Some people just trust.

The Seven Dwarves: I believe that nicotine is not addictive - YouTube


I don't listen to such naive fantasies to just use common sense. That is just common sense.
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