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Old 11-23-2007, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 44,920,109 times
Reputation: 20413

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
I think what it comes down to is the fact that everyone's culture is different...it's how we were raised, and what we believe...and I don't have a problem at all with any other religion...matter of fact, other religions make me curious and I find them interesting...but...in the same...complaining about a holiday, or song, or greeting or tree, is trying to be controlling...and taking someone elses freedom of speech and belief away from them...if you don't like it, don't listen to it....if you don't want to hear it, walk away and allow others their day in the sun....for goodness sakes...to sue someone b/c your offended at their holidays to me is a bit deranged and shows a failure to allow others....

Freedom of speech is very important in this country, and as I stated before, when you try and take away from others, that insults freedom of speech...what makes America great is the diversity about it...and the world freedom... believe, do not believe, or of another culture or religion...I think the word here is respect....and nothing more...If the greeting Merry Christmas or Happy Holiday offends you, I think you've got some very serious underlying problems.

No matter what you believe, it is very dangerous to our rights, and our freedom of speech to ignore this, b/c usually people who want to take rights away are not satisified with one thing, if they win, they want more and more rights taken away and usually end up going for the jugular....and I think, thats what this is all about...we don't want to loose any more rights...already in schools the kids cannot sing those old beautiful songs like silent night, o' little town of bethlehem, oh christmas tree, etc. And I find that sad...especially when they incorporate into the program, other religious songs...?????
For the record, I agree with what you're saying... I personally have NEVER complained about this stuff, and couldn't care less about saying, singing, or writing the word Christmas. In fact, I happen to love many Christmas carols and hymns - I'm a musician, and perform in at LEAST 1-2 Christmas concerts a year (usually the Messiah, but I'm doing a private church one this year). Most non-Christians would agree with me, and only want to be slightly more inclusive... add that tiny little menorah, or whatever other cultures you want to represent, and we'll all be happy. Is that so difficult??

 
Old 11-23-2007, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Hernando County, FL
8,488 posts, read 17,893,784 times
Reputation: 5397
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
As for your examples above, they are isolated and hardly government-mandated... if a school or business CHOOSES to use "Happy Holidays" or not to mention Christmas, that is their right. If you owned a business, it would be your right to plaster Merry Christmas from top to bottom, and you could even ban the word Holiday. Until private citizens are being suppressed, I still can't go along with this complaining about "attacks" on your holiday.

Fyi, there are plenty of other holidays that suffer restrictions - ummmm, like the fact that ONLY Christmas is a national holiday (as sooner keeps reminding us), and most people automatically get the day off. Do you see any accommodations being made for other holidays, or people getting bonuses & double-pay for Ramadan, Passover, or anything else? Nope, just Christmas gets this special treatment, and yet you're still whining about it every year. Getting old, I tell ya.
I don't see how numerous examples from every corner of the country are isolated examples.
I also gave a few examples that were government mandated.
And here is the reasoning behind having Christmas as a Federal holiday.

The United States Code, section 5 USC 6103 declares ten national, legal, public holidays, one of which is Christmas. Cincinnati attorney Richard Ganulin filed a lawsuit on 1998-AUG-4 in U.S. district court, 1 asking that the federal government be required to stop declaring future DEC-25 holidays. His goal was not to terminate Christmas. He wants Federal Employees to be given an extra vacation day which they could take on DEC-25, or on any other day if they wished. He feels that "Christmas is a religious holiday and the Congress of the United States is not constitutionally permitted to endorse or aid any religion, purposefully or otherwise, or [promote] entanglement between our government and religious beliefs." Judge Susan Dlott dismissed the suit. According to ReligionToday for 1999-DEC-8, Judge Dlott decided "that Christmas can be observed as a federal holiday because non-Christians also mark the holiday by celebrating the arrival of Santa Claus. Since nonreligious people also observe the holiday, giving federal workers a day off for Christmas does not elevate one religion over another." Ganulin has promised to appeal the case to the U.S. Supreme Court.
 
Old 11-23-2007, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Hernando County, FL
8,488 posts, read 17,893,784 times
Reputation: 5397
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
For the record, I agree with what you're saying... I personally have NEVER complained about this stuff, and couldn't care less about saying, singing, or writing the word Christmas. In fact, I happen to love many Christmas carols and hymns - I'm a musician, and perform in at LEAST 1-2 Christmas concerts a year (usually the Messiah, but I'm doing a private church one this year). Most non-Christians would agree with me, and only want to be slightly more inclusive... add that tiny little menorah, or whatever other cultures you want to represent, and we'll all be happy. Is that so difficult??
No, it is not so difficult but the problem is that many want to take away the Christmas part and leave the rest.
I am not a religious person but I feel there should be even treatment all around.
To have our children being taught about Kwanzaa but skating around Christmas because it might offend someone is ridiculous.
 
Old 11-23-2007, 08:21 PM
 
26,319 posts, read 24,422,016 times
Reputation: 16000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Peterson View Post
No, it is not so difficult but the problem is that many want to take away the Christmas part and leave the rest.
I am not a religious person but I feel there should be even treatment all around.
To have our children being taught about Kwanzaa but skating around Christmas because it might offend someone is ridiculous.

AMEN and thank you for this post.....
 
Old 11-23-2007, 08:25 PM
 
26,319 posts, read 24,422,016 times
Reputation: 16000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Peterson View Post
I don't see how numerous examples from every corner of the country are isolated examples.
I also gave a few examples that were government mandated.
And here is the reasoning behind having Christmas as a Federal holiday.

The United States Code, section 5 USC 6103 declares ten national, legal, public holidays, one of which is Christmas. Cincinnati attorney Richard Ganulin filed a lawsuit on 1998-AUG-4 in U.S. district court, 1 asking that the federal government be required to stop declaring future DEC-25 holidays. His goal was not to terminate Christmas. He wants Federal Employees to be given an extra vacation day which they could take on DEC-25, or on any other day if they wished. He feels that "Christmas is a religious holiday and the Congress of the United States is not constitutionally permitted to endorse or aid any religion, purposefully or otherwise, or [promote] entanglement between our government and religious beliefs." Judge Susan Dlott dismissed the suit. According to ReligionToday for 1999-DEC-8, Judge Dlott decided "that Christmas can be observed as a federal holiday because non-Christians also mark the holiday by celebrating the arrival of Santa Claus. Since nonreligious people also observe the holiday, giving federal workers a day off for Christmas does not elevate one religion over another." Ganulin has promised to appeal the case to the U.S. Supreme Court.
Wonder which special interest groups paid him to do this...unthinkable, and disgusting...absolutely disgusting....I think he ought to leave the U.S. and live someplace else then....what a horrible man...to actually intrude on the beliefs of others...this is the crap that becomes really controlling...and to me, the guy is rather deranged....thats right, to actually take something away from people that makes them happy, that gives them joy, regardless the meaning...Christmas has been for years and years....and this man thinks he's somebody with his big law degree and all...and he can't stand the fact that people are happy....and just leave it alone....and how smug of him to make this evaluation....dismissed the suit. According to ReligionToday for 1999-DEC-8, Judge Dlott decided "that Christmas can be observed as a federal holiday because non-Christians also mark the holiday by celebrating the arrival of Santa Claus. Since nonreligious people also observe the holiday, giving federal workers a day off for Christmas does not elevate one religion over another."

I hope someone appeals him and takes away his license....I am sick to death of people who keep trying to control others...tell them what they should believe...call them names because of their beliefs....and we've got terrorists living right here in this country and illegals all over the place from all different countries, but that's ok...lets do something really assinine and take Christmas away from others...oh, boy I really wish these people would find something constructive to do....I mean really, energize all this money into something really meaningful instead of picking on a belief....shhhessh....the guy really enjoys hurting people doesn't he....big man...yeah right.
 
Old 11-23-2007, 11:47 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,889 posts, read 102,319,187 times
Reputation: 32951
Here is a little story from Ft. Collins, Colorado:

Fort Collins council votes to keep Christmas display : Updates : The Rocky Mountain News

The task force that authored the proposal apparently didn't even know much about Christianity. Red and green are not "Christian" Christmas colors; many church Christmas trees have white lights and white ornaments because Christ is the "light of the world". Christmas trees are supposedly an offshoot of a pagan tradition. Holly and mistletoe are Druid symbols.

I haven't read the whole thread. If someone else already posted this, my apologies.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 11-23-2007 at 11:49 PM.. Reason: add
 
Old 11-24-2007, 05:54 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 44,920,109 times
Reputation: 20413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Peterson View Post
I don't see how numerous examples from every corner of the country are isolated examples.
I also gave a few examples that were government mandated.
In a country with billions of people & thousands upon thousands of schools and businesses, those are isolated incidents... as for anything being government-mandated, I'd have to read the full stories to comment on that. But once again, I agree that people should be free to say what they want - whether it's Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Happy Festivus or whatever. As long as your rights aren't being stepped on, I just don't think there's a reason to complain when others choose a different approach.

Quote:
And here is the reasoning behind having Christmas as a Federal holiday.

The United States Code, section 5 USC 6103 declares ten national, legal, public holidays, one of which is Christmas. Cincinnati attorney Richard Ganulin filed a lawsuit on 1998-AUG-4 in U.S. district court, 1 asking that the federal government be required to stop declaring future DEC-25 holidays. His goal was not to terminate Christmas. He wants Federal Employees to be given an extra vacation day which they could take on DEC-25, or on any other day if they wished. He feels that "Christmas is a religious holiday and the Congress of the United States is not constitutionally permitted to endorse or aid any religion, purposefully or otherwise, or [promote] entanglement between our government and religious beliefs." Judge Susan Dlott dismissed the suit. According to ReligionToday for 1999-DEC-8, Judge Dlott decided "that Christmas can be observed as a federal holiday because non-Christians also mark the holiday by celebrating the arrival of Santa Claus. Since nonreligious people also observe the holiday, giving federal workers a day off for Christmas does not elevate one religion over another." Ganulin has promised to appeal the case to the U.S. Supreme Court.
There are other holidays celebrated by many, even if they don't share the culture/religion... I've "observed" St. Valentine's Day, St. Patrick's Day, Halloween, etc. So why is Christmas the only nationally recognized one? I don't really have a problem with that, but the reasoning behind it is rather weak IMO.
 
Old 11-24-2007, 05:58 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 44,920,109 times
Reputation: 20413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Sorry, I didn't know that it was the word that offended you.

I remember when I lived in the east, I often said "happy holidays" so as not to offend people with whom I was not familiar, and who may have been Jewish. I never said "Happy Hannukah", though -- it seemed presumptuous and false of me, since I am not Jewish. Is that kind of how you feel about "Merry Christmas"?
Thought I'd comment on this, since it's something I have thought of... occasionally I get accused of "PC-ness" for saying Happy Holidays, when really it's just more comfortable. Talking about Christmas is fake and weird for us, though I honestly don't mind it being said to me. So yes, that is how we (at least I) feel about saying Merry Christmas. My standard response is generally "You too!" or "Have a great holiday!"
 
Old 11-24-2007, 06:05 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 44,920,109 times
Reputation: 20413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Peterson View Post
No, it is not so difficult but the problem is that many want to take away the Christmas part and leave the rest.
I am not a religious person but I feel there should be even treatment all around.
To have our children being taught about Kwanzaa but skating around Christmas because it might offend someone is ridiculous.
Maybe they're just trying to give other holidays some "air-time," since Christmas is already widely celebrated and understood... you've all said over & over how soooooo many people celebrate it, even non-Christians, so we're pretty familiar with the story. I don't think it should be eliminated, but it makes sense to focus on traditions that are less well-known. Even here in California (which has a good-sized Jewish population), I've had to explain my holidays to countless people - including a former boss, who tried to call B.S. when I requested the High Holy Days off. She'd never even HEARD of them, let alone understood the significance. And if I hear one more person pronounce Chanukah like Chalupa... LOL.

Funny... as I'm typing this, there's a CHRISTMAS Best Buy commercial on, where they play "Hark Hear the Bells" with lights (very cute!). And yes, they actually said Christmas shopping, not Holiday - so I maintain that we're not at war against your celebration. Bottom line, we should enjoy whatever holidays we're celebrating, and stop worrying about all of this nonsense.
 
Old 11-24-2007, 08:16 AM
 
26,319 posts, read 24,422,016 times
Reputation: 16000
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
In a country with billions of people & thousands upon thousands of schools and businesses, those are isolated incidents... as for anything being government-mandated, I'd have to read the full stories to comment on that. But once again, I agree that people should be free to say what they want - whether it's Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Happy Festivus or whatever. As long as your rights aren't being stepped on, I just don't think there's a reason to complain when others choose a different approach.



There are other holidays celebrated by many, even if they don't share the culture/religion... I've "observed" St. Valentine's Day, St. Patrick's Day, Halloween, etc. So why is Christmas the only nationally recognized one? I don't really have a problem with that, but the reasoning behind it is rather weak IMO.

I don't have an answer to that, and basically I don't care what the answer is....but what I do care about is the facts...that there are people who do care and it annoys them...why? Small little words...get kicks out of hurting others, by taking something near and dear to them away...that to me, Gismo is the story...some people live in very shallow little worlds and get a rush out of taking and destroying others, and to boot, it IS most certainly a control thing...
but even if it does pass, they won't settle for that, they'll want more and more, and they slowly chip away at our right, freedom of speech, freedom to believe in what we want to believe in and what this country was built on...jealous, small, narrow minded people who are dysfunctional when it comes to allowance...? I dunno, just my thoughts...and yet, we've got people in this country who are really suffering, homeless, victims of Katrina, crime coming out the gazo...but they don't give a darn about that, nope, it's more of a rush to destory and hurt others I suppose?
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