News flash - Are we really about to normalize relations with Cuba?!?! (private school, county)

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by Hellion1999

it seems to amaze after 50 years of Castro's revolution failure and how it has made the millions of Cubans extreme poor with no human rights, how some here defend Castro and the communist revolution at the comfort in their homes in the U.S.A

Why don't you lift all of the sanctions and embargoes against Cuba, and then get back to us?

If Castro's revolution doesn't work, then why does the US need to have sanctions and embargoes in place?

Your argument is circular: Castro's Cuba doesn't work because we levied economic and financial sanctions, plus embargoes to ensure it would fail.

Originally Posted by Hellion1999

I'm thinking how you write you are part of the BLAME THE USA crowd and that capitalism and every American business that has invested in foreign countries are evil and all they do is exploit dry poor people!

You didn't deny it.

Capitalism is not an Economic System. Capitalism is a Property Theory. A Property Theory answers one and only one question: Who should have control of Capital?

Capitalist Theory states Capital is best left in the hands of individuals. History has proven that individuals use Capital more efficiently or effectively; respond faster to the needs -- Demands -- of the Markets; and are not inherently subject to Group-Think.

Socialist Theory suggests that Capital should be controlled by Groups. These Groups may be government or non-governmental organizations (NGOs). Groups use Capital inefficiently; are slower to meet the Demands of the Markets or never meet them at all; and are inherently subject to Group-Think.

Communist Theory claims that Capital should be controlled by the People-at-Large. The People-at-Large do not use Capital efficiently or effectively; are slower to meet the Demands of the Markets; but are not negatively impacted by Group Think as Socialists are.

Capitalism has nothing to do with Cuba.

I am a Capitalist, but you are not.

The Economic Systems are completely separate and apart from Property Theories. Economic Systems answer three basic questions:

1] What products or services should we produce or provide?
2] How shall we produce the product or provide the service?
3] For whom shall we produce this product or service?

There are three Economic Systems, plus hybrids of each. One such Economic System is the Traditional System. It is still used by about 2 Billion people, mostly in those States that have social structures based on clans or tribes. Suffice to say that everything is done based on Tradition, which is heavily determined by Culture and thus influenced by Group-Think, so we'll ignore that here.

Your two Economic Systems are:

Free Market System
Command Market System

(and of course hybrids).

I am a Free Marketeer, but you are not.

Originally Posted by Hellion1999

We go around the world exploiting people, that's what American investors do.

And that is not Capitalism and it is not Free Market Economics.

You forgot to mention the part that your government sent people like me to foreign States like Honduras to oppress the people so that you can exploit them more efficiently.

There are negative consequences to exploitation, namely that it is unsustainable over the long-term.

Your current economic problems are due to the fact that your ability to exploit other foreign States is being severely hampered.

When you can no longer exploit, then what?

Originally Posted by Hellion1999

Castro's actions were legal????? says who? you? I'm sure because you typed your name MIRCEA at the bottom of every of your talking points makes it a fact....LMAO!

I didn't know stealing property and bank accounts of everybody in Cuba and violating the human rights of Cubans was legal , maybe in your world.

Proof Surrogate
Substituting a distracting comment for a real proof.

Your surrender is noted and accepted.

The IRS and State revenue offices and county auditors and cities all do the same thing.

When you don't pay taxes, your assets, bank accounts and property are seized.

Originally Posted by Hellion1999

American Businesses in Cuba paying little to no taxes is what the U.S.A did to Puerto Rico,....

Not relevant.

Your surrender is noted and accepted.

Originally Posted by Hellion1999

.... U.S. territory after WW 2 under Operation Bootstrap transformed the economy of Puerto Rico and Cuba from an agricultural economy into an industrial and developed one, which Cuba was pre-Castro. It worked for both islands in the Caribbean which got them out of extreme poverty compare to the others Latin republics until Castro's revolution took over which made everybody extreme poor except the Castros brothers and the politicos of their communist party.

Factually incorrect.

Both Puerto Rico and Cuba (and the Philippines) were more prosperous under Spanish rule, than under US dictatorship.

Originally Posted by Hellion1999

I'm sure Cuba had it good under Spain and those DAMN YANKEES messed it all up.

That's exactly what happened.

Your inability to refute the facts of US military intervention in Cuba is noted.

Your surrender is noted, too.

Originally Posted by Hellion1999

Now compare Cuba and Puerto Rico of today and is night and day.

False Analogy
The problem is that the items in the analogy are too dissimilar. When reasoning by analogy, the fallacy occurs when the analogy is irrelevant or very weak or when there is a more relevant disanalogy.

Levy the same economic and financial sanctions and trade embargoes against Puerto Rico that are in effect for Cuba, and get back to us.

Originally Posted by Hellion1999

Is the best example how Castro's revolution has failed badly and people like you living in OHIO defend his actions and programs and throw under the bus American investors that take the risks and invest in 3rd world countries.

Proof Surrogate
Substituting a distracting comment for a real proof.

Your surrender is noted and accepted.

You are unable to refute any of the following facts:

1] Castro as the member of a political group fire-bombed an army barracks.
2] Castro and several other members were captured and imprisoned.
3] The US State Department pressured Batista to grant clemency.
4] Castro and others were granted clemency and released at the behest of the US
5] The US State Department invited Castro to US Embassy Mission Mexico City
6] Castro was recruited in Mexico City by the US State Department to overthrow Batista
7] CIA Agent Frank Sturgis was assigned to Castro as body-guard, intelligence analysis and logistics coordinator
8] The US State Department and CIA funded Castro's rebel army, and also supplied Castro's rebel army
9] Upon successfully overthrowing the Batista Regime, Castro was brought to the US, given a grand tour of nearly a dozen cities, and hailed in the US Media as a Hero.

In fact, the New York Times has photos of Castro in Times Square with throngs of cheering Americans.

The US State Department has a damn difficult time identifying Nationalists.

Castro was a Nationalist, just like Chi Minh Ho and many others.

Kim Koo of Korea was also a Nationalist, which is why the US murdered him in cold-blood.

Originally Posted by Hellion1999

by the way when the min. wage of Castro's Cuba is 5 cents an hour in 2014 with no humans rights, you can't blame anymore the U.S.A. and capitalism, that's all on Castro but I'm sure you will comeback here and defend his actions more.....LOL

Minimum wage is $1.40/hour in Romania.

You can buy a house or an apartment on that much.

Can you buy a house with wages of $1.40/hour in the US?

$0.05/hour is meaningless without context.

The minimum wage in India is $0.28/hour, but it only costs $106.54 per child per year to send your kid to the best most expensive private school in India --- assuming your kid would be intelligent enough to be granted admission.

The cheapest private school in India costs $27.81 per child per year.

Many Indians who send their children to private schools pay about $58.76 per child per year.

I don't vouch for this link, but it would seem to refute your nonsense about Cuba's minimum wage.....

Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed

Still no win for you....

Mircea

[ellemint]

Originally Posted by badlander

From the Trip Advisor web page

Most people seem to think that Cubans are poorer than they are (and have little idea who is poor and who is not in Cuba).
2. Cuba is a socialist country that does not conform to the international conception of a democracy (even though - contrary to popular belief - it does have its own version of elections)
These two things combined lead many tourists to act the way they do. Mostly out of misconceptions as to the Cuban reality. Few to none out of any desire to do harm. Many because they think they are doing good because they have personally seen the smile on the maid's or child's face.
Getting back to points 1 and 2: The thing is that Cuba is not the poorest country on earth and Cubans, while definitely poor by North American and Western European standards, are not the poorest in the world. This is not just in comparison with poor African countries, but also compared to many - if not most - of its immediately comparable neighbors. But Cuba is not located between Canada and USA or in the Alps squeezed in between Switzerland and Austria. It is located in one of the world's traditionally poorest regions. Apart from colonies that are heavily subsidized by USA, France, UK, Holland or Spain, what countries in that region are traditionally blessed with a flourishing economy? And when was Cuba? The poorest 5-10% of the population in Haiti, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Mexico, Colombia, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua are much poorer than the poorest 5-10% Cubans.
Without getting into too much detail none of these countries provide its citizens with the following:
1. A basic rationing system that provides every single citizen with enough food to survive on (but admittedly not enough to feast or get fat on).
2. Heavily subsidized basic living expenses such as cheap to almost free: Housing, electricity, water.
3. Free health care and free education.
This is all provided in Cuba.
If severe poverty is measured on factors like hunger, lack of housing and basic health care, Cuba cannot be considered a poor country.
Way of life - costs of living
Many gift-givers use the low Cuban wages as the prime argument for bringing gifts. The average wage for a Cuban is indeed 12-25 dollars monthly, and yes, that does sound ridiculous. So the next thought is "who can live off that?" and the answer that many come up with is "nobody can", because it’s tempting and obvious to compare that money with the daily lives of the tourist and nobody in Canada or Europe can live off 20 dollars for just a week, let alone a few days. But Cuba is not Canada or Europe. The difference is that thehouse of the visitor to Cuba is not free, and it is not possible to go to the local market in Canada or England and pick up basic food (libreta) supplies for a week for a few dollars - and water and electricity costs a fortune, not to mention cost of kindergarten and putting a kid through college. A Cuban can pay all his monthly bills with 2-4 dollars.
Apart from the extremely low living costs many Cubans have other “enterprises” outside their regular job, and thus make additional money, sometimes earning more than they do from their government wage. The economy in Cuba is much different than that which the average tourist is used to. In a sense, many of the first-worlders are as strapped in their own economy as what some Cubans are in theirs (in these crisis times even more). There are probably many tourists who – after all expenses are paid – do not have much more to spend on chocolate, parties and rum than what Cubans have. And some that have less. end of quote

After the last half decade how can anyone defend capatilism when you look at all the poor countries that are failures Too many hear bashing those who are not attacking Cuba are comparing Cuba with the US to see if the Castros have failed. The real test would be comparing them to the non communist neighbours other than the US or Canada. It is neither paradise or the worse place in the world. But for you and others buying an item made in Cuba is terrible because that supports a communist country with little freedom but so many people go to Wal-Mart and buy items made in China instead. Where is the logic there?

One of the Cubans we did talk to told us of a family member who is a doctor but works part time as a plumbing supplier and makes more from his business than he does as a doctor. Did you know they they can and do operator businesses for themselves, not nearing enough but more than yesteday but not as many as tomorrow. Cuba appears to be moving to a mixed economy.

And Cuba has nearly a 100 % literacy rate---take that America!

[ellemint]

A very good article, kind of a primer on the history of Cuba/American relations, link below:


9 questions about Cuba you were too embarrassed to ask - Vox

[Mouldy Old Schmo]

Of all the Hispanics in the United States, Cuban Americans are least liked by leftists. Why is that?

[desertdetroiter]

Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo

Of all the Hispanics in the United States, Cuban Americans are least liked by leftists. Why is that?

You polled leftists about which Hispanic subgroups they prefer?

You've got waaaaaaay too much time on your hands.

Take up bowling or something.

[nononsenseguy]

Originally Posted by desertdetroiter

Don't you have an original thought instead of parroting the likes of Marco Rubio?

I do. And Marco Rubio and others articulate my thoughts very well.

[HeyJude514]

Originally Posted by nononsenseguy

I do. And Marco Rubio and others articulate my thoughts very well.

And once again, you find yourself on the wrong side of history. Ten years from now people will shake their heads at the lunacy of a 54 year embargo that accomplished nothing and wonder what the hell took us so long to rescind it. And Marco Rubio will be a footnote in history that no one but a few really old Cubans in Southern Florida--and you--even remember.

[tinman01]

Originally Posted by HeyJude514

And once again, you find yourself on the wrong side of history. Ten years from now people will shake their heads at the lunacy of a 54 year embargo that accomplished nothing and wonder what the hell took us so long to rescind it. And Marco Rubio will be a footnote in history that no one but a few really old Cubans in Southern Florida--and you--even remember.

54 years of Embargo. The majority of the original players are either out of office or dead. Cuba has survived in spite of our best efforts to force their hand. They are our neighbor, I think it is time that we start an honest dialog with them. Better we have at least some dialog with them than going through others.
To put things in perspective.Canada has maintained a cordial relationship with Cuba and oddly enough Canada hasn't turned communist as a result.
Most can't even recall why we embargo Cuba. Most of us most likely don't see why we need to continue punishing the people of Cuba.
I wonder why this nation insists upon jumping on the wrong side of history.
Cuba, Vietnam, Iran, Iraq etc.

[wrecking ball]

Originally Posted by nononsenseguy

And Marco Rubio and others articulate my thoughts very well.

rand paul has come out in favor of opening relations with cuba and is critical of rubies' remarks.

Paul, Rubio clash over Obama's Cuba policy

[Wapasha]

Originally Posted by rugrats2001

Is Obama about to announce normalized relations with Cuba, after 50 years?! I say it's about time!

Well, as great a negotiator as 0bama is, I know we will get some important human rights concessions out of Castro's Cuba. You know, things like increased personal freedoms and restoring the basic human rights of the people of Cuba. /threetruckloadsofsarcasm