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Old 10-04-2015, 04:09 PM
 
20,524 posts, read 15,909,938 times
Reputation: 5948

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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
Seems like you don't know much about the educational system here.

At least in schools, ESL classes are taught to students who aren't ready for mainstream English classes and it's designed to scaffold or support their learning with the objective to mainstream them into standard English or other classes.

Other subjects such as History may be taught or designed for ELD or ELL students so that they are at least able to keep up with the content while they are doing language acquisition, which takes time to master.

As for your other accusation - kindly show the evidence to support that.
ESL is pretty useless IMHO. The BEST way to learn English is by "immersion" like as in being surrounded by English speakers, most kids WILL learn that language and real quick.
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Old 10-04-2015, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,831 posts, read 24,347,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Except ESL teaches English to remain a second language. Other subjects are also taught in foreign languages, to perpetuate the political power of the "leaders" of these groups.
No. Or at least very rarely.

ESL teaches foreign students to learn English as the primary language of learning. Naturally, many of these students and their parents continue using their native language at home.

Meanwhile, traditional foreign languages taught in schools (such as French, German, and Spanish, and more recently Chinese and Russian) are used in teaching American students to practically use a foreign language through content. With the exception of Spanish, these programs do not reflect the populations of ESL students in the school systems.

For example, in our school we had -- over time -- about 25 languages that students came to us with as their dominant language (ranging from Vietnamese and Thai, to African languages, and others). None of the schools in my system (one of the largest in the nation) taught content using those languages for regular students. ESL students were in 3 levels, and over time "graduated" from learning the very basics of the English language, to learning somewhat more sophisticated English, to moving into full English-based classes.
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Old 10-04-2015, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
13,561 posts, read 10,361,420 times
Reputation: 8252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
ESL is pretty useless IMHO. The BEST way to learn English is by "immersion" like as in being surrounded by English speakers, most kids WILL learn that language and real quick.
You also neither understand the educational system either nor about educational theory and are just arguing from ideological dogma. How predictable of you.

It really depends on the level of understanding of the particular student - they vary all over the board. Some are able to handle it, others need more support.

There is also a difference between BICS (basic intercommunication skills) and the level of English to master academic level language, called cognitive academic language proficiency (CALP). Difference between social and academic levels of language.

Explaining BICS and CALP
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Old 10-04-2015, 04:51 PM
 
62,970 posts, read 29,162,429 times
Reputation: 18593
The problem is why we have so many Spanish speaking kids in our schools that can't speak English in the first place. It is mostly due to illegal immigration.
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Old 10-04-2015, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Rural Wisconsin
19,807 posts, read 9,371,980 times
Reputation: 38354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Skeffington View Post
I'm originally from Berks County, Pennsylvania, and what was once predominantly a Pennsylvania Dutch area is now hugely Hispanic. The culture that was once so unique and attractive to tourists is almost gone. Don't get me started on the escalated crime...and you can't go anywere without hearing Spanish, Spanish, Spanish (where you used to hear Pennsylvania Dutch). When my mother goes out with her friends, and they hear a lot of Spanish jabbering, they speak to each other in Dutch (Pennsylvania German)...it confuses the h*** out of the Hispanics.

My brother (who also lives there) has seen a lot of what he believes are Syrians...burka clad and looking confused. He doesn't know where they're living, only glad it's not in his neighborhood.
This is so sad to me for the reason I bolded. Although I do admit that Hispanics/Latinos have a point about keeping their heritage in the southwest (and in other areas such as Florida) because they and the "Native Americans" were there before the "whites", I hate to think about the Amish and Pennsylvania Dutch becoming even more of a minority in eastern states known for rural farmland than they are now.
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Old 10-04-2015, 06:01 PM
 
20,524 posts, read 15,909,938 times
Reputation: 5948
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
You also neither understand the educational system either nor about educational theory and are just arguing from ideological dogma. How predictable of you.

It really depends on the level of understanding of the particular student - they vary all over the board. Some are able to handle it, others need more support.

There is also a difference between BICS (basic intercommunication skills) and the level of English to master academic level language, called cognitive academic language proficiency (CALP). Difference between social and academic levels of language.

Explaining BICS and CALP
2 words: sink or swim. The legal aliens from Italy and so on became American and their kids spoke English.
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Old 10-04-2015, 06:03 PM
 
20,524 posts, read 15,909,938 times
Reputation: 5948
Quote:
Originally Posted by whocares811 View Post
This is so sad to me for the reason I bolded. Although I do admit that Hispanics/Latinos have a point about keeping their heritage in the southwest (and in other areas such as Florida) because they and the "Native Americans" were there before the "whites", I hate to think about the Amish and Pennsylvania Dutch becoming even more of a minority in eastern states known for rural farmland than they are now.
To be fair: those "Hispanics" and other aliens who come to the US legally NEED to become "American" or go back home. Illegal aliens I just want gone. Period.
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Old 10-04-2015, 06:24 PM
 
1,024 posts, read 1,041,605 times
Reputation: 1730
Quote:
Originally Posted by whocares811 View Post
This is so sad to me for the reason I bolded. Although I do admit that Hispanics/Latinos have a point about keeping their heritage in the southwest (and in other areas such as Florida) because they and the "Native Americans" were there before the "whites", I hate to think about the Amish and Pennsylvania Dutch becoming even more of a minority in eastern states known for rural farmland than they are now.
Not really. The overwhelming majority of "Hispanics" residing in the Southwest are not descended from pre-1848 settlers. Almost all of the current presence is a result of 20th century migrations.
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Old 10-04-2015, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
13,561 posts, read 10,361,420 times
Reputation: 8252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
2 words: sink or swim. The legal aliens from Italy and so on became American and their kids spoke English.
Oh, that's just a myth. Nonna usually wasn't able to speak English very well, however succeeding generations acquired English fluency. It does take time and it is easier to know the language when you're younger. That's not changed.

Anyway, to puncture your illusions, today's immigrants acquire English at the same rate or faster as the mythical Europeans of yesteryear. And that includes Latinos.

In any case, it doesn't justify getting rid of ESL classes, because they ARE useful to immigrants for language acquisition, even it if offends your nativist myopia. Isn't that what you always demand of immigrants who come to this country? You always exhort immigrants about learning English ad nauseum, but you don't want to provide the resources that will help them.
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Old 10-04-2015, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
13,561 posts, read 10,361,420 times
Reputation: 8252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
To be fair: those "Hispanics" and other aliens who come to the US legally NEED to become "American" or go back home. Illegal aliens I just want gone. Period.
And they are. And they're changing what it means to be American - a culture doesn't stay static, it evolves.

Sorry but you don't have a monopoly on what "American" is defined as, or you no longer do. Deal with it.
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