Pro-Vax, Anti-Vax? Why So Polarized? (injection, abortions, school, compared)

[rbohm]

Originally Posted by suzy_q2010

The problem with eradicating polio is that it still exists in areas where religious fanatics are interfering with vaccination programs. So far this year there have been a total of 5 cases of polio, 3 in Afghanistan and 2 in Pakistan. Vaccination must continue in areas of the world where it has recently been found because it may still be in water supplies there. Wild polio was completely eliminated in the Americas in 1991.

This Week – GPEI

No one who is knowledgeable about vaccines sees them as a "prevent all type of drug" and no one expects a vaccine to prevent anything except the disease it is designed to.

There is no hepatitis C vaccine, unfortunately.

There are no problems from "overuse" of vaccines.

By the way, a new Ebola vaccine was found to be 100% effective last year. No one who got the vaccine came down with Ebola ten or more days after getting it. The vaccine does not use intact Ebola virus, so it cannot cause Ebola itself.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/22/h...a-vaccine.html

you are assuming that i am anti vaccine, and that would be very wrong. vaccines are good things, when properly used. and yes there can be problems with over use of vaccines, as with ANY medication, or vitamin supplement.

also read what i said again, i said that SOME people see them as a prevent all, not all people. a little reading comprehension goes a long way.

[moneill]

Originally Posted by Floorist

Forcing vaccinations sounds good until your child is part of the small percentage that has a bad reaction and may even die from them. Every time my stepson got any vaccination, he had a seizure. After he quit getting the shots, he never had another seizure. His specialist ( a neurologist) said the shots were causing them. He also told us that there was a risk of brain damage.

Every pediatrician, doctor, medical expert I have heard speak about vaccinations admits there is a slight risk...but the risk of adverse reaction to the vaccine is smaller than the risk of dying from measles, etc.

Like many medicines or medical treatments some may have a severe adverse reaction but risk management tells us it is better to use the vaccine than not.

I'm sorry your stepson suffers like this. I would have made them 'test' after the first vaccine....one time is one too many for a seizure.

[dothetwist]

So, don't vax. Your kids will die and the US average IQ will rise.

[suzy_q2010]

Originally Posted by rbohm

you are assuming that i am anti vaccine, and that would be very wrong. vaccines are good things, when properly used. and yes there can be problems with over use of vaccines, as with ANY medication, or vitamin supplement.

also read what i said again, i said that SOME people see them as a prevent all, not all people. a little reading comprehension goes a long way.

Who sees vaccines as a "prevent all"? I know of no one.

Please define what you mean by "over use" of vaccines and describe the "problems" that causes.

Originally Posted by dog8food

Once again you speak in terms of absolutes, which really damages your arguments. It makes me very suspicious.

The science is out there if you don't turn a blind eye. Start with the list I provided.

And by the way, there is much more money in pro-vax than anti-vax.

Let's look at your list, shall we?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14976450

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15638050

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19716764

Those three are authored by the Geiers. Mark Geier has lost his license to practice medicine - in twelve states. He's a quack. Starting off with any Geier article is very weak. The second article attempts to use data from VAERS to infer causation. You cannot do that. Anyone can report anything to VAERS. It does not mean the condition in the report was caused by the vaccine.

Harpocrates Speaks: Mark Geier: Not a Leg to Stand On

There is no evidence that mercury causes autism.

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22336803

From the abstract, it is difficult to know how the authors arrived at their conclusion. As far as mumps is concerned, the US uses only the Jeryl Lynn strain, so the comments about other strains are irrelevant.

Low platelet counts after MMR resolve spontaneously, and febrile seizures are benign and related to fever associated with vaccination, not the vaccine itself.

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15638050

The issue of vaccines and asthma and allergies has been studied. Evidence does not support that vaccines cause asthma. See here, with references:

World Allergy Organization

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How about this one:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058170

It suggests that the birth dose of hepatitis B vaccine increases the risk of autism. However, the number of cases of autism was small (which screws up statistics) and some of the cases were born before the neonatal dose of hepatitis B vaccine was routinely recommended. In other words, some of the cases did not even get the vaccine. More here:

https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/20...-cause-autism/

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21126606

That one really contributes nothing to the literature. It just states something that was already known. What is the significance of low platelets after vaccination? First of all, the risk is low (2-4 cases per 100,000 doses) and it resolves within about 6 months. The infections prevented by the vaccine can also can cause low platelets, and the risk is much higher with the vaccine itself. Therefore, the risk of developing low platelets is overall lower if you are vaccinated. More here:

Harpocrates Speaks: Acute Thrombocytopenic Purpura, the MMR and Natural Infection

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21412913

That one is just plain silly. There will never be such a study. Randomized controlled trials are not the only way to get safety information, and there are such studies showing the vaccine is safe and effective during pregnancy. It would be unethical to take a group of women at risk to get hepatitis B and not vaccinate some of them.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4515586/


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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20614424

The flu vaccine is easy for people to pick on because it is the least effective one that we have. Its effectiveness varies from year to year and is highly dependent on whether the strains in the vaccine match the actual circulating strains.

Critiques of the author of that review:

The Cochrane Collaborative’s Tom Jefferson makes the huge mistake of appearing on Gary Null’s show – Respectful Insolence

Yes, But. The Annotated Atlantic and Influenza – Science-Based Medicine

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15231927

Yep, there are college educated moms who know how to use google and think they know more about vaccines than all the doctors and scientists in the world. They rely heavily on anti-vax pseudoscience when they decide to refuse vaccines.

See the Dunning Kruger effect.

Dunning-Kruger effect - RationalWiki

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24586717

This one just shows the Chinese now understand two doses of MMR are needed. I am not sure your point in including it in your list. It makes me wonder if you read it. You did read it, didn't you? Or did you just copy your list from somewhere?

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19716764

This one just shows the damage the anti-vax movement can do.

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Next.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10802503

A better discussion of mercury in vaccines and babies. it shows that levels go up then come down quickly, with ethylmercury being excreted in the stool. Ethylmercury is different from methylmercury. In addition, no current children's vaccines contain mercury, even though it was never found to be harmful in the type and amounts used in vaccines. It was just easier to remove it because of the anti-vax hysteria about it.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ent/121/2/e208

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10230847

The authors of that article, which is from 1999, were promptly criticized:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3703233...n_tab_contents

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18805844

That is a report of 5 cases.

Since then, other research as shown no link between MS and HPV vaccine. This one studied 3,983,824 females, among whom 789,082 received a total of 1,927,581 qHPV vaccine doses.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25562266

"In this study with nationwide coverage of 2 Scandinavian countries, qHPV vaccination was not associated with the development of multiple sclerosis or other demyelinating diseases. These findings do not support concerns about a causal relationship between qHPV vaccination and demyelinating diseases."

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23801230

From your link:

" ... however the majority of events were mild and transient."

Most of those are sore arms and fainting episodes. Fainting can be prevented by simply having the patient lie down for a short while after getting the vaccine.

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22423139

Critiqued here:

Flu vaccine study does not show it causes 5.5X more respiratory infections

Even if the article showed what the authors thought it did (it didn't - numbers too small to draw conclusions), colds are a lot less dangerous than flu.

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14646978

Again, I have to wonder if you read the articles in this list.

The conclusion of the authors:

"Our data suggest that the recommended age for the first dose of measles vaccine during measles epidemics should be lowered to 9 months, with re-vaccination at 12-15 months."

During epidemics, not routinely.

Routine measles vaccination is done at 12 to 15 months precisely because antibodies from the mother reduce the effectiveness of the vaccine in younger infants.

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9386653

https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

"Guide to Interpreting VAERS Case Report Information
When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established. Reports of all possible associations between vaccines and adverse events (possible side effects) are filed in VAERS. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event."

Your link indicates that when deaths of infants have been reported after vaccines, the peak age corresponds to the peak age for SIDS. Vaccines have not been shown to cause SIDS.

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You say, "PREFACE: I am NEITHER Anti-Vax NOR Pro-Vax."

Then you include a list composed mostly of information that on the surface is anti-vax (some are not, but you cannot tell it from the titles.)

How about giving us a link to where you found that list?

[suzy_q2010]

Originally Posted by dothetwist

So, don't vax. Your kids will die and the US average IQ will rise.

No, their kids will not die, because they are protected by herd immunity for the most part. However, if they live in a cluster of other vaccine refusing families, their risk of getting sick if someone brings a vaccine preventable disease into their community is higher because herd immunity fails at low vaccination rates.

The usual scenario for measles, for example, is that an unvaccinated person travels to a country where measles still circulates in the population, catches it, and brings it home. Then 90% of the susceptible people exposed to the traveler also get it.

[Dude111]

Originally Posted by dog8food

PREFACE: I am NEITHER Anti-Vax NOR Pro-Vax. I do my research and make informed decisions

Very good...... Im glad to read this.... You have your own mind

GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR FAMILY!!

Originally Posted by dothetwist

So, don't vax. Your kids will die and the US average IQ will rise.

Thats a horrible thing so say..... Please use care when replying to threads of this kind!

[Floorist]

Originally Posted by Cassy Fae

I wonder why. The first thing that comes to mind is that his immune response is triggering these seizures- just a guess on my part. I wonder if he will have these symptoms when he faces illnesses during his life.

He is now 35 and never had another one.

[Floorist]

It seems that vaccinations have made our immune systems weaker. I grew up in the 50s and everyone had all the childhood diseases, measles, mumps, chicken pox etc. Don't remember anyone dying. Now, measles seem to be deadly.

[suzy_q2010]

Originally Posted by Floorist

It seems that vaccinations have made our immune systems weaker. I grew up in the 50s and everyone had all the childhood diseases, measles, mumps, chicken pox etc. Don't remember anyone dying. Now, measles seem to be deadly.

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/history.html

"In the decade before 1963 when a vaccine became available, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Also each year an estimated 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 4,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles."

That does not include the people left with permanent damage from the infection, such as hearing loss.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-...ia-strict.html

This outbreak is in an Orthodox Jewish Community. None of the cases were vaccinated. The article does not give any information on the first case. Odds are it's someone who traveled outside the country.

Vaccines do not make our immune systems "weaker". The immune system reacts to a vaccine the same way it would to an actual infection. It actually makes the immune system stronger, primed to react if it is exposed to the actual infection.

Measles infection, on the other hand does weaken the immune system - for up to two to three years after the infection. Introducing measles vaccine into a country reduces not only measles deaths, but all deaths from infections in children by about 50%.

Measles Weakens the Immune System for Years - D-brief

[Floorist]

Originally Posted by suzy_q2010

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/history.html

"In the decade before 1963 when a vaccine became available, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Also each year an estimated 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 4,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles."

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-...ia-strict.html

This outbreak is in an Orthodox Jewish Community. None of the cases were vaccinated. The article does not give any information on the first case. Odds are it's someone who traveled outside the country.

And how many die from vaccinations every year?