Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I get what you're saying...and there are girls out there who date abusive jerks because they give off the perception of being "alpha". I don't want to get started on the whole "daddy issue" debate because that's for another thread.
Women (and men) respond to buttons being pushed. Society might say push them by being a macho he-man, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. It's easy to screen for the psychos (don't be a thug/******** and those types won't go for you) leaving the normal ones good to go!
IMO, women are socially-engineered from the beginning in their youth, to prefer the "alpha male". It doesn't have to be that way though. That's just what society wishes, and therefore what is done on a practical level.
Again, being masculine has nothing to do with not letting emotions show or anything to do with that. Like it or not, it does mean assertive and strong. I think you put too much faith into the gender social construct idea. I think in your scenario women would be attracted to some men, but only based on looks. But for the most part two gender-less creatures can't attract each other.
IMO, women are socially-engineered from the beginning in their youth, to prefer the "alpha male". It doesn't have to be that way though. That's just what society wishes, and therefore what is done on a practical level.
I do agree that you're putting way too much stock in this "social engineering" idea. There's nature and nurture involved with much human behavior, but no one is a slave to it.
I look at my family. I've got two sisters. We grew up in the same house with the same parents, ate the same food, shared the same bathroom, etc. And we're all attracted to different kinds of men. I like the sarcastic, nerdy hipster, sister A likes assertive blue collar types, sister B is married to a soft-spoken teddy bear . We share genes, background, etc. but we all go for something different. By your logic we'd all be fighting over the same guy.
I guess what I'm saying is, society intentionally nurtures and breeds the male traits, that are commonly accepted as "masculinity". They are not hardwired that way...they are brought out. Society encourages a young male stereotype that is strong, powerful, and assertive, but much more emotionless than their young female counterparts. I bet you that if young boys were raised more like young girls emotionally and on an emotional level (encouraged to be overtly sensitive, kind, loving, encouraged to hug and be affectionate as much as they want...to explore their positive emotions), women would find *these* kinds of men to be more attractive, than the the currently-accepted male stereotype.
ETA: of course, the kind of men mentioned above are useless, to the military-industrial complex.
Knight2009 - You give society too much credit. I once did too, until I had a son. I bought only gender neutral toys for him to play with. I signed him up for ballet lessons instead of football. I really had to coax him into ballet by emphasizing to him that only really strong and powerful boys can dance ballet and how he'd get to play the role of King, or a soldier. He wasn't buying it. I eventually had to give up on ballet and let him play sports.
During his early childhood I was a single (widowed) mom so he didn't have a male role model as a young boy. I thought he was a clean slate for me to mold. How foolish I was!
What I learned is that you can't stop boys from being boys. With nothing but crayons and paper he would create his own little war games. "Boom!""Ka-Pow!" "Swoosh!"
He loved anything that made a lot of noise and went fast. He liked to pound nails into stumps, tear things apart, put them back together, and last but not least, set things on fire. LOL. Trying to prevent him from being that way was like trying to keep the sun from rising in the morning.
My attempt to turn my son into a soft and passive soul failed miserably. Thank goodness!
I do agree that you're putting way too much stock in this "social engineering" idea. There's nature and nurture involved with much human behavior, but no one is a slave to it.
I look at my family. I've got two sisters. We grew up in the same house with the same parents, ate the same food, shared the same bathroom, etc. And we're all attracted to different kinds of men. I like the sarcastic, nerdy hipster, sister A likes assertive blue collar types, sister B is married to a soft-spoken teddy bear . We share genes, background, etc. but we all go for something different. By your logic we'd all be fighting over the same guy.
Knight2009 - You give society too much credit. I once did too, until I had a son. I bought only gender neutral toys for him to play with. I signed him up for ballet lessons instead of football. I really had to coax him into ballet by emphasizing to him that only really strong and powerful boys can dance ballet and how he'd get to play the role of King, or a soldier. He wasn't buying it. I eventually had to give up on ballet and let him play sports.
During his early childhood I was a single (widowed) mom so he didn't have a male role model as a young boy. I thought he was a clean slate for me to mold. How foolish I was!
What I learned is that you can't stop boys from being boys. With nothing but crayons and paper he would create his own little war games. "Boom!""Ka-Pow!" "Swoosh!"
He loved anything that made a lot of noise and went fast. He liked to pound nails into stumps, tear things apart, put them back together, and last but not least, set things on fire. LOL. Trying to prevent him from being that way was like trying to keep the sun from rising in the morning.
My attempt to turn my son into a soft and passive soul failed miserably. Thank goodness!
Very intriguing! Thx for sharing more about your experience I will readily concede, all I really have is a theory; nothing more. When I myself was a young boy, I enjoyed conventional "boy toys" just as much as any other young boy. However, at the same time, I never lost (and still have, to this day), a certain level of "softness". For example, I adore hugging...can't get enough, of hugs (although, generally much more applicable to the female rather than the male gender, lol). I am a definite cuddle-bear! This is one definite trait that I can think of, that is generally discouraged in males as they grow older...my own parents tried their darndest to break me out of this habit, but their efforts failed miserably Also, I am not afraid as a man to "emote" -- to show outward love and affection and kindness, which some guys might deem as "wimpy" or "sissyish" (I could care less though, what they think). In the end, I am what my own temperament and environment made me.
Some of them do put themselves up there...we can stay clear away from them! They have more power then men if men are trying to get something from them (approval, sex, relationship, whatever). If a guy is truly not dependent on the outcome (not just telling himself this) then he has as much power as her. It's a goal of mine to completely get to this point.
If you're talking about the numbers game you have a point...but only if you're like 90% of the other guys who come up to her and offer her a drink or a compliment to "earn" the right to talk to her.
Well, there will always be a small portion of women who become attracted to some soft-spoken, soft man. But not the majority....
Listen, I made a key distinction. Women are attracted to masculinity! There's nothing society or anything else can change about that. But masculinity doesn't mean getting into fights or boosting cars. It means having cajones to stay firm about your limits and desires. It means planning and deciding what to do for the night instead of "i don't know, what do you want to do?"
This stuff is hardwired into our genetics. It's the old nature vs. nurture huh?
But why is this (The statement in bold) associated with masculinity? These are the types of traits that both males and females should have.
The problem I have with gender roles is how femininity is associated with weakness and masculinity is associated with strength. For example, when a guy is acting like a coward or whining too much both males and females will call him a "p*ssy" which is slang for the female sex organ. They will also tell that same guy to get some courage by telling him to "man up" or "grow a pair". I can't help but think that by using these terms to associate with strong character traits and weak ones only reinforces what we think about gender roles and are in some ways sexist.
The problem I have with gender roles is how femininity is associated with weakness and masculinity is associated with strength. For example, when a guy is acting like a coward or whining too much both males and females will call him a "p*ssy" which is slang for the female sex organ. They will also tell that same guy to get some courage by telling him to "man up" or "grow a pair". I can't help but think that by using these terms to associate with strong character traits and weak ones only reinforces what we think about gender roles and are in some ways sexist.
I agree. On this board we often see guys who don't come across as brutish as "manginas" because, you know, the most terrible thing for a person to be is a woman.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I will readily concede, all I really have is a theory; nothing more. When I myself was a young boy, I enjoyed conventional "boy toys" just as much as any other young boy. However, at the same time, I never lost (and still have, to this day), a certain level of "softness". For example, I adore hugging...can't get enough, of hugs (although, generally much more applicable to the female rather than the male gender, lol). I am a definite cuddle-bear! 
This is one definite trait that I can think of, that is generally discouraged in males as they grow older...my own parents tried their darndest to break me out of this habit, but their efforts failed miserably 
Also, I am not afraid as a man to "emote" -- to show outward love and affection and kindness, which some guys might deem as "wimpy" or "sissyish" (I could care less though, what they think). In the end, I am what my own temperament and environment made me.
