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The FWB was not an existing relationship and it is the new person business when an LTR is in the pipeline.
He is going to start having sex with her and he doesn't know about possible STD's. Her medical certificate is not current.
If a woman I am dating has one or more FWBs, I expect her to tell me. Especially if her profile says she is looking for LTR.
So once you're looking for LTR, you say 'bye to your FWB? That may be what YOU do, but that is not a "rule" you can make for anyone else. And your assumptions are your assumptions. OP (and you) apparently like to keep things "loose" just in case - you don't bring up exclusivity but reserve the right to get ticked off, especially if you aren't "seksing" anyone else. Jealousy is not pretty. You're the same type that gets mad if you find out your gf was out doing something when you were on a break - sorry, doesn't work like that. "Put a ring on it", metaphorically speaking in terms of exclusivity if that's what you want.
Excellent post. The woman doesn't want to give it up too quickly to a guy that she actually likes. In her mind, the FWB is just getting sex but the "good guy" is getting everything. As a man, the double standard can be infuriating. Women may say "I prefer to establish a connection first" but then turn right around and smash some random dude with no strings attached for months on end. To her it's just sex, but to Mr. Relationship, it's a sign of betrayal. The one thing I want most, I have to wait for because I'm special....but a guy that you care little about gets it right off the bat. To women, everything they offer is the whole package with sex being but a small piece. For men, everything but sex is easily obtainable from lots of women but sex is the exclamation point and the hardest hurdle to clear. Denying me the one thing I need to know the relationship is secure but giving it freely to others is akin to a man cuddling with some random woman, rubbing her feet, watching romantic movies and going on picnics.
And your other posts explaining your thinking that it is hurtful that if she really thinks you're special, but she gives sex to a guy who isn't, and not to you...
Also this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Screami
Women understand this they just don't care. We live in a world where everything is mens fault and women can do no wrong.
OK I have grown up feeling the EXACT OPPOSITE my whole life. Men can pursue whatever they want and they're golden, but a woman? If she isn't doing exactly what any given particular man wants her to do, bring on the name calling, shame her right into the ground, she's clearly a horrible person and should not be entrusted with the vajayjay the good lord gave her, by golly. If it's not being judged for one thing it's being judged for another.
And one of the more frequent ones? We aren't supposed to like sex for its own sake. Or rather, we're supposed to pretend as hard as we can, that we don't. We are not "that kind of girl!" Only if paid for with emotional and commitment currency, are we then allowed to like sex. Except that men complain about that. So then what? And now it's all "sex positivity" and owning our own pleasure and stuff. Who knows what we're supposed to be doing? I don't. But if I met a man I really liked and really wanted to have a longterm relationship with, I certainly would consider taking everything really slow, because if I gave it up to him, he'd probably be like "Yay, score! Easy chick! OK, I'm outta here." Whereas the guy who is hot but not a good candidate for a LTR for some reason? Yeah, who cares if he hits it and quits it? Who cares what his judgment or opinion is? He'll be gone eventually anyhow most likely, there is no relationship there.
This is what I want you to understand, jgn2013, in particular. There is always a chance that a woman who makes a man wait, simply cares about HIS opinion of her. And doesn't want HIM to think she's "easy" (or worse words.)
We've had it hammered into our brains over a lifetime that if you give it up too quick, you ought to expect the guy to not respect you, think you are girlfriend material, or want to stick around. So what this whole scenario should say, is she cares about the opinion of one guy, but not the other.
However, she didn't care enough about his opinion, to craft her entire life around it...merely enough to craft THEIR INTERACTION around it.
Now where I go in a very different direction from the woman in the original story here, is that I believe in a lot of disclosure. I think that any potential partners of mine should be giving INFORMED consent, so that means that before we get frisky, he's going to have some idea of my sexual and relationship history, both longterm, and recent. And if I were so worried about the guy thinking I'm too easy, I probably would not have done the FWB thing at all. Gotta walk your talk after all. Instead of saying "I'm not that kind of girl" she more honestly should have said "I want something more than casual with you. I've been casual with guys when I didn't care about them, but I see more than that with you and your opinion matters, which is why I feel like I need to give this some time before we hop in bed together. I want your respect." That would be the more honest thing to say. Or maybe, more likely for me personally, "I should make you aware that I have a FWB, I don't see as being relationship material, but my feeling about me and you is more along the lines of wanting to have a relationship...rather than something casual. But when I'm building a relationship, I prefer to take some time before bringing sex into it. Are you comfortable with this, or no?" And let him decide if he can hang, or if he can't.
It's like talking about sexual health matters, which a lot of people in the overall dating world don't bother to do, I've noticed, before you become intimate. I've always felt like so many people in the world like to go about dating just assuming things, because wow, actually communicating is so awkward, and then when it blows up in their faces being all wronged and mad about it.
And your other posts explaining your thinking that it is hurtful that if she really thinks you're special, but she gives sex to a guy who isn't, and not to you...
Also this:
OK I have grown up feeling the EXACT OPPOSITE my whole life. Men can pursue whatever they want and they're golden, but a woman? If she isn't doing exactly what any given particular man wants her to do, bring on the name calling, shame her right into the ground, she's clearly a horrible person and should not be entrusted with the vajayjay the good lord gave her, by golly. If it's not being judged for one thing it's being judged for another.
And one of the more frequent ones? We aren't supposed to like sex for its own sake. Or rather, we're supposed to pretend as hard as we can, that we don't. We are not "that kind of girl!" Only if paid for with emotional and commitment currency, are we then allowed to like sex. Except that men complain about that. So then what? And now it's all "sex positivity" and owning our own pleasure and stuff. Who knows what we're supposed to be doing? I don't. But if I met a man I really liked and really wanted to have a longterm relationship with, I certainly would consider taking everything really slow, because if I gave it up to him, he'd probably be like "Yay, score! Easy chick! OK, I'm outta here." Whereas the guy who is hot but not a good candidate for a LTR for some reason? Yeah, who cares if he hits it and quits it? Who cares what his judgment or opinion is? He'll be gone eventually anyhow most likely, there is no relationship there.
This is what I want you to understand, jgn2013, in particular. There is always a chance that a woman who makes a man wait, simply cares about HIS opinion of her. And doesn't want HIM to think she's "easy" (or worse words.)
We've had it hammered into our brains over a lifetime that if you give it up too quick, you ought to expect the guy to not respect you, think you are girlfriend material, or want to stick around. So what this whole scenario should say, is she cares about the opinion of one guy, but not the other.
However, she didn't care enough about his opinion, to craft her entire life around it...merely enough to craft THEIR INTERACTION around it.
Now where I go in a very different direction from the woman in the original story here, is that I believe in a lot of disclosure. I think that any potential partners of mine should be giving INFORMED consent, so that means that before we get frisky, he's going to have some idea of my sexual and relationship history, both longterm, and recent. And if I were so worried about the guy thinking I'm too easy, I probably would not have done the FWB thing at all. Gotta walk your talk after all. Instead of saying "I'm not that kind of girl" she more honestly should have said "I want something more than casual with you. I've been casual with guys when I didn't care about them, but I see more than that with you and your opinion matters, which is why I feel like I need to give this some time before we hop in bed together. I want your respect." That would be the more honest thing to say. Or maybe, more likely for me personally, "I should make you aware that I have a FWB, I don't see as being relationship material, but my feeling about me and you is more along the lines of wanting to have a relationship...rather than something casual. But when I'm building a relationship, I prefer to take some time before bringing sex into it. Are you comfortable with this, or no?" And let him decide if he can hang, or if he can't.
It's like talking about sexual health matters, which a lot of people in the overall dating world don't bother to do, I've noticed, before you become intimate. I've always felt like so many people in the world like to go about dating just assuming things, because wow, actually communicating is so awkward, and then when it blows up in their faces being all wronged and mad about it.
It's easier for a woman to get sex then it is for a man. A woman can go to a bar an announce that she wants to get laid she will have 98% of the men willing and able. A man does the same thing. He will get laugh at. That is why a woman that has a lot of men as lovers is called names since it is not a difficult thing to achieve. A man would be given recognition since bedding a lot of women will require either $$$, top level game/charisma, good looks or celebrity status.
All i am saying is that both men and women should be honest about their status. If you have a FWB forewarn the person. The other person deserves that right as he or she would not be involved in something like that.
And your other posts explaining your thinking that it is hurtful that if she really thinks you're special, but she gives sex to a guy who isn't, and not to you...
Also this:
OK I have grown up feeling the EXACT OPPOSITE my whole life. Men can pursue whatever they want and they're golden, but a woman? If she isn't doing exactly what any given particular man wants her to do, bring on the name calling, shame her right into the ground, she's clearly a horrible person and should not be entrusted with the vajayjay the good lord gave her, by golly. If it's not being judged for one thing it's being judged for another.
And one of the more frequent ones? We aren't supposed to like sex for its own sake. Or rather, we're supposed to pretend as hard as we can, that we don't. We are not "that kind of girl!" Only if paid for with emotional and commitment currency, are we then allowed to like sex. Except that men complain about that. So then what? And now it's all "sex positivity" and owning our own pleasure and stuff. Who knows what we're supposed to be doing? I don't. But if I met a man I really liked and really wanted to have a longterm relationship with, I certainly would consider taking everything really slow, because if I gave it up to him, he'd probably be like "Yay, score! Easy chick! OK, I'm outta here." Whereas the guy who is hot but not a good candidate for a LTR for some reason? Yeah, who cares if he hits it and quits it? Who cares what his judgment or opinion is? He'll be gone eventually anyhow most likely, there is no relationship there.
This is what I want you to understand, jgn2013, in particular. There is always a chance that a woman who makes a man wait, simply cares about HIS opinion of her. And doesn't want HIM to think she's "easy" (or worse words.)
We've had it hammered into our brains over a lifetime that if you give it up too quick, you ought to expect the guy to not respect you, think you are girlfriend material, or want to stick around. So what this whole scenario should say, is she cares about the opinion of one guy, but not the other.
However, she didn't care enough about his opinion, to craft her entire life around it...merely enough to craft THEIR INTERACTION around it.
Now where I go in a very different direction from the woman in the original story here, is that I believe in a lot of disclosure. I think that any potential partners of mine should be giving INFORMED consent, so that means that before we get frisky, he's going to have some idea of my sexual and relationship history, both longterm, and recent. And if I were so worried about the guy thinking I'm too easy, I probably would not have done the FWB thing at all. Gotta walk your talk after all. Instead of saying "I'm not that kind of girl" she more honestly should have said "I want something more than casual with you. I've been casual with guys when I didn't care about them, but I see more than that with you and your opinion matters, which is why I feel like I need to give this some time before we hop in bed together. I want your respect." That would be the more honest thing to say. Or maybe, more likely for me personally, "I should make you aware that I have a FWB, I don't see as being relationship material, but my feeling about me and you is more along the lines of wanting to have a relationship...rather than something casual. But when I'm building a relationship, I prefer to take some time before bringing sex into it. Are you comfortable with this, or no?" And let him decide if he can hang, or if he can't.
It's like talking about sexual health matters, which a lot of people in the overall dating world don't bother to do, I've noticed, before you become intimate. I've always felt like so many people in the world like to go about dating just assuming things, because wow, actually communicating is so awkward, and then when it blows up in their faces being all wronged and mad about it.
On your last paragraph, are you suggesting that a person who doesn't ask about a person's status is at fault if that person doesn't divulge something and then passes it on? I don't think you are, but that's kind of the idea I got, re something blowing up.
Of course we should ask, but we have an obligation to share things like STD status before chancing spreading something to someone else. Like another lengthy discussion we had here, it's best to be safe, but the person who violates your safety is the culprit and a major turd. Having said that, safety doesn't seem to be the main concern, or even one mentioned, by the OP.
But the main point I wanted to ask you about is the issue of waiting in order to make the right impression. Do you want to be with a man who would label you an s--- or a w---- because you slept with, and drum roll here..............him? Wouldn't that attitude be enough to say "no thanks"? Why would you want to mange EDIT: or manage the impression you make with that kind of a--hole? Universal "you".
It's easier for a woman to get sex then it is for a man. A woman can go to a bar an announce that she wants to get laid she will have 98% of the men willing and able. A man does the same thing. He will get laugh at.
All i am saying that both men and women should be honest about their status. If you have a FWB forewarn the person. The other person deserves that right as he or she would not be involved in something like that.
So because a woman can easily get sex, scorn is valid if she does, unless there is a relationship? I'm not sure if I'm understanding your point. But I do agree that men and women should be honest! God why would you not want to be honest? Lying/hiding relevant truths sure starts a potential relationship off on the wrong foot, huh? There are many more guys who will understand if a woman has a FWB or if she is "easy" compared to if she has in some way been deceptive. No one likes to feel misled.
And also, I have never truly understood...if a woman is succeeding in getting sex, assuming we're talking about straight people here, is not a man also succeeding, simultaneously, in that event? I don't buy this whole idea that 10% of men are banging 90% of women or whatever that's about. I just don't.
But I suppose one way to look at it...
Bob the man is willing/happy to have 100 female sex partners in his lifetime. That number is fine to him.
(if he can.)
Sue the woman, is willing/happy to have 10 male sex partners in her lifetime. For some reason, more than that seems "trashy" to her. At any rate, she worries about her number getting too high.
This is the only phenomenon that I can think of that puts any sense on the whole "getting sex is easy for women but challenging for men" concept.
However, this complaint also presupposes that all sexual encounters are equal to all people, which they aren't. I've had plenty of male partners who really didn't do much for me and I look back and think...well, it's not that I regret them since nothing particular bad came of it, but yet...nothing good came of it either. Like I wish I'd spent that time in my life watching an interesting show, making a piece of art, possibly even doing the dishes. Whereas it seems a lot of men (but not all of them) would prefer even unremarkable or bad sex (if they believe there is such a thing) to none at all.
I just had a thought, and contemplated my own history which I do keep listed (mostly because I have this nerd-brain thing where I make lists of all kinds of things constantly)... And I wondered, out of all my male partners, what percentage of them would I choose over a night alone with a good toy... So, a quick look over the list...27% Twenty seven percent of the males I've been with, were better than just getting the job done on my own.
So now what incentive do I have, as a woman, to go to some bar and announce to a bunch of stinky drunk men that I want to get laid??
Last edited by Sonic_Spork; 12-05-2017 at 11:47 AM..
On your last paragraph, are you suggesting that a person who doesn't ask about a person's status is at fault if that person doesn't divulge something and then passes it on? I don't think you are, but that's kind of the idea I got, re something blowing up.
Of course we should ask, but we have an obligation to share things like STD status before chancing spreading something to someone else. Like another lengthy discussion we had here, it's best to be safe, but the person who violates your safety is the culprit and a major turd. Having said that, safety doesn't seem to be the main concern, or even one mentioned, by the OP.
But the main point I wanted to ask you about is the issue of waiting in order to make the right impression. Do you want to be with a man who would label you an s--- or a w---- because you slept with, and drum roll here..............him? Wouldn't that attitude be enough to say "no thanks"? Why would you want to mange EDIT: or manage the impression you make with that kind of a--hole? Universal "you".
I was making the general point that when people don't communicate, stuff goes sideways. I wish honesty and communication were more popular among the masses, just as a general rule.
The "blowing up" thing...ok, what about the person who does not disclose, but then has to face the music when a partner finds out, maybe the hard way? But more significantly I meant, people should be talking about their testing status, and how recently compared to testing they have been active, and how active, and if protection is being used. That kind of thing. Not just if they have something. I think most people who pass on STIs probably don't even know they've got them.
As to the judgment thing.
No, they don't have to be the kind of a-hole who calls names, but a lot of men have this gut-deep reaction that if a woman gives them sex too readily, then she just isn't relationship material. Even if his thinking mind wants to not actively judge her, his gut instincts do.
More realistically in my experience, if I have sex with a guy, there is a chance (random chance it seems) that I might "catch feelings" for him. And if it is too soon and he doesn't have any feelings for me? Uh oh. Now I look like a crazy clinger, because I've got feels and he doesn't. That is another good reason to keep one's roll kinda slow sometimes.
Here is a curiosity that I have.
I can far more readily understand the judgment against the woman in the OP, she was pretty deceptive. OP didn't know about the FWB until after they were already months in and having sex. OK. But (men, I am curious in your answers to this!) what if a woman seemed to want to take it kind of slow with you, but at some point you found out she'd had more casual relationships IN HER PAST...before you met...would you be as quick to judge her for those and talk about "what kind of girl she is?"
So once you're looking for LTR, you say 'bye to your FWB? That may be what YOU do, but that is not a "rule" you can make for anyone else. And your assumptions are your assumptions. OP (and you) apparently like to keep things "loose" just in case - you don't bring up exclusivity but reserve the right to get ticked off, especially if you aren't "seksing" anyone else. Jealousy is not pretty. You're the same type that gets mad if you find out your gf was out doing something when you were on a break - sorry, doesn't work like that. "Put a ring on it", metaphorically speaking in terms of exclusivity if that's what you want.
I don't think it's a rule, but it's not unreasonable to be uncomfortable dating someone who is having sex with someone else. And whatever motives we'd like to ascribe to objections to this, being uncomfortable with an arrangement is ample reason to pass on it. And as you said, the person passed on still has the FWB.
So I guess I'd bring the conversation around to my intentions, finding a LTR, and that I focus on that to the exclusion of other types of relationships. And ask how she handles this? If she says she wants or needs to maintain an FWB I would likely decide to continue dating her, but I'd have other questions or talking points like safety, timing, clear expectations should we start having sex, and probably some reassurance that I'm special and the other guy is just good for f------. I really can grasp that intellectually, but emotionally that's a tough sell. It really feels special when I'm getting f-----, so it might confuse me on the feels level.
So because a woman can easily get sex, scorn is valid if she does, unless there is a relationship? I'm not sure if I'm understanding your point. But I do agree that men and women should be honest! God why would you not want to be honest? It sure starts a potential relationship off on the wrong foot, huh? There are many more guys who will understand if a woman has a FWB or if she is "easy" compared to if she has in some way been deceptive. No one likes to feel misled.
And also, I have never truly understood...if a woman is succeeding in getting sex, assuming we're talking about straight people here, is not a man also succeeding, simultaneously, in that event? I don't buy this whole idea that 10% of men are banging 90% of women or whatever that's about. I just don't.
But I suppose one way to look at it...
Bob the man is willing/happy to have 100 female sex partners in his lifetime. That number is fine to him.
(if he can.)
Sue the woman, is willing/happy to have 10 male sex partners in her lifetime. For some reason, more than that seems "trashy" to her. At any rate, she worries about her number getting too high.
This is the only phenomenon that I can think of that puts any sense on the whole "getting sex is easy for women but challenging for men" concept.
However, this complaint also presupposes that all sexual encounters are equal to all people, which they aren't. I've had plenty of male partners who really didn't do much for me and I look back and think...well, it's not that I regret them since nothing particular bad came of it, but yet...nothing good came of it either. Like I wish I'd spent that time in my life watching an interesting show, making a piece of art, possibly even doing the dishes. Whereas it seems a lot of men (but not all of them) would prefer even unremarkable or bad sex (if they believe there is such a thing) to none at all.
I just had a thought, and contemplated my own history which I do keep listed (mostly because I have this nerd-brain thing where I make lists of all kinds of things constantly)... And I wondered, out of all my male partners, what percentage of them would I choose over a night alone with a good toy... So, a quick look over the list...27% Twenty seven percent of the males I've been with, were better than just getting the job done on my own.
So now what incentive do I have, as a woman, to go to some bar and announce to a bunch of stinky drunk men that I want to get laid??
So because a woman can easily get sex, scorn is valid if she does, unless there is a relationship? Where they i state that?? Scorn is made by other women who do not want that sort of woman around her BF/Husband etc since the man can be swayed to her and she could lose him. Some men scorn the woman since she is not selective when it comes to mating and does anyone.
A woman can walk up to a guy and state;; "hey, i think your hot. I want to have sex with you. Let's go back to my place and the response will be around 98% yes. What would be the response if a guy made the same statement??
If a girl wants to hook up with a guy it's pretty simple. All she has to do is pick the guy. (average to hot woman). Remember, it's usually men that make the 1st move.
I was making the general point that when people don't communicate, stuff goes sideways. I wish honesty and communication were more popular among the masses, just as a general rule.
The "blowing up" thing...ok, what about the person who does not disclose, but then has to face the music when a partner finds out, maybe the hard way? But more significantly I meant, people should be talking about their testing status, and how recently compared to testing they have been active, and how active, and if protection is being used. That kind of thing. Not just if they have something. I think most people who pass on STIs probably don't even know they've got them.
As to the judgment thing.
No, they don't have to be the kind of a-hole who calls names, but a lot of men have this gut-deep reaction that if a woman gives them sex too readily, then she just isn't relationship material. Even if his thinking mind wants to not actively judge her, his gut instincts do.
More realistically in my experience, if I have sex with a guy, there is a chance (random chance it seems) that I might "catch feelings" for him. And if it is too soon and he doesn't have any feelings for me? Uh oh. Now I look like a crazy clinger, because I've got feels and he doesn't. That is another good reason to keep one's roll kinda slow sometimes.
Here is a curiosity that I have.
I can far more readily understand the judgment against the woman in the OP, she was pretty deceptive. OP didn't know about the FWB until after they were already months in and having sex. OK. But (men, I am curious in your answers to this!) what if a woman seemed to want to take it kind of slow with you, but at some point you found out she'd had more casual relationships IN HER PAST...before you met...would you be as quick to judge her for those and talk about "what kind of girl she is?"
I'd wonder what kind of boy I was, to her. You would worry about his opinion of your virtue; I'd worry about her opinion of my desirability.
Even though it defies logic and probability in my case, I'd kind of like to be both the guy she bangs soon and the guy she wants long term.
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the impression you make with that kind of a--hole? Universal "you".
