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So shirina we get that you blame religion for all the world's problems.
Obviously you don't get it ... since I never said I blame it for all the world's problems. This is what happens when people attempt to over-simplify something that is rather complex (hence why my post was so long). You tend to miss most of what's being said and merely quest for that one singular take-away point that you hope can turn this discussion into a series of one or two sentence posts.
If that's what you want, Twitter is just a mouse click away.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
So poof religion disappears. And lo and behold all those same problems still exist.
"Arresting, trying, convicting, and incarcerating criminals hasn't eradicated crime so perhaps we should simply stop arresting criminals."
If you disagree with the sentence above, then you should know why the entire premise of your post is faulty.
I do want to clarify an error I made in my earlier post and that is to say that I'm not attack all religion as one big monolithic entity. It's fundamentalism and evangelism that I have in my crosshairs all the time. It's any belief system that would keep someone from attending a wedding simply because the couple is gay or because the couple cohabitated together before the marriage -- any of these primitive, outmoded belief systems that essentially hand you a preordained list of people to hate, shun, oppress, attack, or even kill.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
And you find something else to blame for all the world's problems. Government, politicians, healthcare system, whatever.
While it is true that wars, violence, oppression, misogyny and suchlike will not cease to exist if religion suddenly disappeared, what matters is that people would have a much harder time finding justification for their crappy behavior. It's as simple as that.
Yes, horrible things will still occur, but without fundamentalist and fanatical beliefs, Bible-worship and a heavy focus on judgment and sin, there will, without a doubt, be a lot fewer horrible things. What's more, no one but no one will be able to hide behind their holy books and "religious liberty" when called to the carpet for their toxicity and poison. There would be no more, "Because the Bible says ..." or "Because God says ..." excuses for their bigotry and barely concealed fear of those people they do not understand.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
And then what? Where is this going?
You realize, of course, that your entire post was the same sort of response that, for example, a Big Oil executive would give when told that his company is guilty of dumping millions of gallons of toxic water into a river.
It's that, "Yeah, I'm representing the guilty party, I kinda-sorta know that my party is guilty, too, but I can't admit to anything, either, so ..." type of response.
And then what? Well, if religion were to disappear, we could start working on the other problems that face humanity -- and we'd almost certainly be far more successful at it than we are right now because we wouldn't have the rigid, absolutism and authoritarian hyper-confidence that religion brings.
For instance, the issue between Israel and the Palestinians would, more or less, become a relatively simple land negotiation between two groups of people who are perfectly capable of living together peacefully -- not another chapter in the ancient struggle between Muslims and Jews.
Where is this going? Well, again ... without the protection of fundamentalist religion and Bible-worship, those who have so doggedly climbed aboard the anti-gay bandwagon would simply have to admit that they're all homophobic bigots because without the Bible telling them about the "abomination" that is homosexuality, what other justification would they have for such a strong, negative, even hostile opinion of gays getting married?
Chances are, without the Bible, they'd have kept their mouths shut knowing that being such an outspoken opponent of gay rights only makes them look like nothing more than unreasoning haters.
I do since the left accuses us of hating homosexuals.
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Like it or not, Christianity is fast becoming an ideology of hatred and bigotry -- a remnant of the Dark Ages that, in *this* country at least, does little more than justify prejudice.
Prove it.
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Sure, you can tell yourself that the Bible only calls the homosexual sex act an "abomination," but the truth is, a very large percentage of those who insist upon supporting Christo-fascism with their scripture-quoting have essentially reduced being gay to *only* the sex act. Actually *loving* a member of the same sex isn't even in the equation.
You love your father yet you don't marry him do you? Love is emotion and emotion often times lacks logic.
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Thus, when they see a gay person in real life or, much to their ridiculous out-spoken chagrin, see a gay person portrayed on television, all they see is a walking-talking gay sex act. PERIOD.
Evidence?
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Which means all these Christo-fascists ever really see in a gay person is ... wait for it ... wait for it ... yeah ... an abomination.
You're projecting. You have yet to prove that's all what christians see when they meet a homosexual.
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Those who take the Bible literally, those who think it's the inspired Word of God, those who live by its rules and laws, those who practically worship IT as much as they worship their God -- they already ignore far more of the Bible than they acknowledge, so there is a rotten, stinking, black-hearted ulterior motive at the core of this surge and push to keep the gays in the closet, off television, out of our literature, out of our schools, and as far away from the marriage altar as humanly possible.
Because there are dozens upon dozens upon DOZENS of better things, positive things, from the Bible to be focusing on, but these people *deliberately* and *willfully* chose to dig in their heels and hook their tenacious claws into one ... yeah, just ONE ... stupid sin. Meanwhile, there are horrific, violent, malicious, and outright evil sins going on all around them, but all they care about is keeping men (it's always focused on gay men) from sleeping together.
And it has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with "saving their souls," either. Rather, it has *everything* to do with gay men doing something these Christo-fascists find "yucky" and therefore it needs to stop. Everywhere. And by golly they're gonna use the Bible and their religion as one huge club to rally everyone around their bigotry, intolerance, and delicate sensibilities. They flap their gums about being a man, but if these male fascists were at ALL macho, they wouldn't be recoiling at the first sign of a gay kiss. Tough guys don't recoil ... right?
What a nice opinion it would be a shame if you couldn't back it up with facts.
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Pardon me for saying so, but this is a flagrantly stupid analogy -- made all the more so due to it being destroyed by the same argument I'm about to give again and again and again.
Yes, you *punish* the child for coloring on the walls. Now, hopefully a good parent knows that a punishment isn't supposed to be vindictive, cruel, and pointless.
Irrevelant. My sole point is that just because you're punished doesn't mean you're being hated.
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If the punishment is simply doled out as a way for the parent to vent his/her anger, then that is awful parenting -- and probably borders on abuse.
Punishments should be bad enough that the child will want to avoid receiving them -- but when a punishment is inevitably given out, it should be educational as well as disciplinary. If the child learns nothing from the experience, the behavior will only continue.
Murdering someone for having gay sex ... hmm ... now ... does that sound at ALL like it is educational as well as disciplinary? I think we know the answer.
What we think is extreme today may be considered normal 100 years from now. Things that people thought was extreme 100 years ago we may consider it normal now. The point is just because you consider it extrem doesn't necessarily means it actually is extreme. There are people today who think that shooting someone in self defense is extreme.
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No, instead, it's just vindictive. It's just wrath and nothing more. Note how the Bible NEVER explains why homosexuality is a sin or why anyone should have to die for it. I think it's very telling about the nature of the bigotry that occurred even in the Bronze Age against gays considering God did nary a thing to the very first killer who murdered his brother -- but the pillars of heaven themselves shake with fury over two people of the same gender in love having sex. Damn, man, when THAT happens, mobilize the whole damn town and KILL!
What makes it vindictive?
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But murdering your own brother and then trying to conceal the body? Meh ... just run off somewhere and build Enoch.
But then, what should one expect from a vindictive God who thinks a proper punishment for all non-believers is eternal torture? Now *there* is a punishment born of malevalent wrath, a vain, self-serving God punishing not on the basis of discipline or education ... but to simply hurt those who dared to disobey and disbelieve.
Telling the Hebrews to kill every homosexual who has actually had sex with his/her partner is, well, child's play compared to the horrors of Bronze Age divinity.
Again, what we consider unacceptable today may be considered normal 100 years from now. For example running around naked or child pornography. These things are for the most part considered unacceptable in the western world. For the latter there are many states that can give you life without parol if you possess it. To put your modern view on an acient time frame is flawed at best.
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LOL! Yes, the ultimate authoritarian. The created have no rights against their creator. That has been the plot of dozens of science fiction yarns regarding androids that have achieved consciousness. And here's the real kicker: Should that ever occur, we humans we'll be far better Gods to our android creations than this Hebrew desert tribal god ever was to *his* creations.
I seem to back to square one ...what IS this 'sin' that gay people are partaking of?
Does anyone actually have an explanation as to WHY homosexuality is supposed to irk God so much? I honestly don't know.
Please, someone, anyone ...educate me.
The sin is gay sex. First off the Bible only mentions it a few times. It's our modern culture that makes it so relevant. If murder was acceptable in our society you'll see people quoting verses about murder is wrong. That being said one of the reasons why is homosexuality such a high crime in the Bible is because (1) they are the main contractees of STDs and (2) homosexuality of that day especially often involved underaged boys.
No, there are just many on here who want to treat them as lesser, keep them from having equal rights, etc. No, there are just many on here who constantly tell them how horrible they are, and that God hates who they are and will send them to hell for being themselves.
You won't hear me saying that God hates gays and as for the second point if you don't accept that Jesus is your Lord and Saviour you'll go to hell regardless if you're gay or not.
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So sure, there aren't many (Don't know about "any") Christians on here saying to hate gays, they are simply telling everyone how much they and their God dislike them, and how they aren't to be treated as equals....
Then again, I am not seeing much difference in the two....
You won't hear me saying that God hates gays and as for the second point if you don't accept that Jesus is your Lord and Saviour you'll go to hell regardless if you're gay or not.
Says you.
Let's face facts: nobody but you and your book claims that anyone is going to hell.
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Originally Posted by Maccabee 2A
God hates the sin, not the sinner.
Tell that to his followers. Their behavior speaks volumes about what they think God hates.
The sin is gay sex. First off the Bible only mentions it a few times. It's our modern culture that makes it so relevant. If murder was acceptable in our society you'll see people quoting verses about murder is wrong. That being said one of the reasons why is homosexuality such a high crime in the Bible is because (1) they are the main contractees of STDs and (2) homosexuality of that day especially often involved underaged boys.
Lol comparing a relationship between two consenting adults to murder. Also, lesbians have a lower rate of STD transmission than straight people do.
Lol comparing a relationship between two consenting adults to murder. Also, lesbians have a lower rate of STD transmission than straight people do.
I wasn't. I was using it as an analogy. As for lesbians, it's more about the quality of STDs rather than the quantity. For example they are more likely to get breast cancer.
I wasn't. I was using it as an analogy. As for lesbians, it's more about the quality of STDs rather than the quantity. For example they are more likely to get breast cancer.
Studies and reports whether being lesbian or bisexual is associated with a higher risk of breast cancer have been patchy and often with contradictory findings. National cancer registries, surveys and databanks do not routinely gather information on people's sexual orientation.
Searches found 198 references. No incidence rates were found. Nine studies gave prevalence estimates - two showed higher, four showed no differences, one showed mixed results depending on definitions, one had no comparison group and one gave no sample size. All studies were small with poor methodological and/or reporting quality. One incidence modelling study suggested a higher rate.
(emphasis added)
You throw out a biased study, I present two unbiased reports citing inaccurate, incorrect or inadequate research.
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