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Old 01-27-2009, 10:20 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,146,313 times
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Lets look at this from a slightly different perspective.

Relating to the Joseph story and all the visions he had that ultimately led to him getting Pharaoh to store up for the lean years that were to come as a result of drought, whether or not this was from God or not, the object lesson is not to consume everything and to make provisions for the lean years - or IOW saving for a (non) rainy day.

From the perspective of Africa that was colonized, the locals were fed by the colonialists in reward for cheap labor on the farms. with this came western medicine that helped to prolong life and decrease infant mortality. As time went by, the natives probably lost their god given sense of survival and as populations increased beyond the ability for the traditional subsistence farmer, when the settlers left, they were probably not able to sustain themselves having adapted to the "western" culture.

Some of the early colonies liberated there were scorched earth policies namely by the French and if you look at Africa as a whole, the post independence of the states generally go into a demise. As liberation moved south, so too did the migrants seeking better pastures where the colonialists were longer in the land and thus placing more demand on natural resources.

In a nutshell that is what happened and one need only look Zimbabwe to see how recent that situation turned out, being the bread basket of the Southern states while the colonialists ruled.

Were these folk allowed to evolve on their own, likely you would find smaller populations due to natural mortality of infants and possibly they in time would come to a place where they too would grow systematically with proportional increases in agriculture and government.

So whose fault was that?

Sure the settlers brought with them the bible and Christianity but the idea was back then using these folk as slaves paid or not expanding the aristocracy mindset of the 17th and 18th centuries. Of course gold was a big driver too and these settlers robbed the natives of their natural resources that they probably did not know had market values had they exploited them themselves.

Now you ask why does God allow this?

Well we are delegated responsibility and while the western world is more concerned with converting grain crops into bio fuels, these crisis will continue. The USA and EU countries have enjoyed relative prosperity and when one looks at the level of aid supplied to the less fortunate, those that were accelerated into western civilization, we have to wonder about the karma facing these countries now.

IMO if god allows this, it is to show us collectively how bad a job we are doing looking after this planet and it's inhabitants. regardless of belief, the lessons to be learned form this are not religious but moral.

I have tried to explain how this came about from a human failure perspective and to apportion blame on God whether you believe in a deity or not is just as big a cop out as Christians make when they say, "there but for the grace of God go I"

Stuff like this awakens our collective moral conscience, believer or not.

What are you going to do about it?
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:23 AM
 
810 posts, read 1,258,802 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComeBack_Kid View Post
Apparently he did... your logic makes no sense

AGAIN, THIS DROUGHT WAS NOT MAN-MADE. The girl died because of nature, man had nothing to do with it. As it is, she and many others probably would not have lived as long as they did without the generousity of the UN and other humanitarian organizations, and by the millions who donate to them.

Agreed. But the money wasnt spent, and if there is a God, it did nothing. People tried to help(hence the UN being there), but your almighty God, who you say can create "an abundance of food" did not.

As stated before, if there is a god, he ignored this girl
Again, read my previous posts.

God ignored this girl? You can't claim to know what God did or did not do anymore than can I. I am relying what I believe to be His word to understand Him, His purposes, His qualities, His plan. You are relying on ???. You don't know that God isn't looking upon the situation with as much disgust and pain as we are.

God would have to step in at every atrocity (including this girl); He can't play favorites, right? If He stepped in at every atrocity from the beginning of time, then humans and Satan's question, or rebellion, is never put to rest. Can humans rule themselves without God? He will step in, no one knows the hour when, and He will put an end to all of this suffering once and for all times.

I really hope that some of this is making sense. I am not sitting here trying to argue MY point. These are things that I find to be truths from the bible. I agree with you 100% that the world and the tragedies that occur everyday are horrific.
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:26 AM
BST
 
Location: Powell, TN
451 posts, read 1,019,070 times
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Thanks Seeker! Your insight is valuable.
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Kentucky
1,090 posts, read 1,952,375 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
This world is created as a form of test by God to mankind.
Wait. What? Isn't God supposed to be all knowing? If he already knows what we're all gonna do, then why for the love of all things shiney would he need to test us? He should already know who would pass or fail even before their conception. What's the point of a testing ground?
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:34 AM
 
225 posts, read 306,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
Again, read my previous posts.

God ignored this girl? You can't claim to know what God did or did not do anymore than can I. I am relying what I believe to be His word to understand Him, His purposes, His qualities, His plan. You are relying on ???. You don't know that God isn't looking upon the situation with as much disgust and pain as we are.

God would have to step in at every atrocity (including this girl); He can't play favorites, right? If He stepped in at every atrocity from the beginning of time, then humans and Satan's question, or rebellion, is never put to rest. Can humans rule themselves without God? He will step in, no one knows the hour when, and He will put an end to all of this suffering once and for all times.

I really hope that some of this is making sense. I am not sitting here trying to argue MY point. These are things that I find to be truths from the bible. I agree with you 100% that the world and the tragedies that occur everyday are horrific.
But do you see from a nonbeliever's point of view how there really is no rational reason to revere your god? If he is unknowable, meaning his ways cannot be understood by mortal minds, then why try? He set in motion a long, cruel experiment. Should ants being burned on the sidewalk revere the kid with the magnifying glass since they do not understand his intentions or motives? The kid is clearly being cruel when he could easily help the ants. If your god lets things like this happen, how can he be given credit for anything? Isn't he just letting good things happen too?
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:45 AM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,374,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
So whose fault was that?
Scenario 1: A couple builds a beautiful house and has a young child. They tell the child not to go in the unfinished basement, because the kid could get hurt. The parents never put a lock on the basement door, and of course, the curious young kid ventures into the unlocked basement and gets severely hurt.

Who's fault is it that the kid got hurt? Wouldn't most people blame the parents for not keeping an eye on their kid and not kid-proofing the house?

The kid's disobedience angers the parents so much that they aren't content merely punishing the child. They also take it out on every future child and grandchild they ever have by throwing them in the basement where they get severely hurt as well.

Is it right to punish someone other than the one who disobeyed?


Scenario 2: God creates a beautiful world and has a couple children. He tells them not to eat the fruit, because it would hurt them, but he leaves it unguarded so they actually can eat the fruit if they want. The people don't know right from wrong, so of course, they venture to the unguarded tree, eat the fruit, and get severely punished.

Who's fault was that? Didn't God specifically give the people this curiosity, without giving them knowledge of good and evil?

God is so angry that he curses every person who will ever live because of this thing that his two children did. Now we live in a fallen world and infants die slow horrible deaths because of famine.

Is it right to punish innocent people for what their ancestors did?
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:58 AM
 
810 posts, read 1,258,802 times
Reputation: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heracles View Post
But do you see from a nonbeliever's point of view how there really is no rational reason to revere your god? If he is unknowable, meaning his ways cannot be understood by mortal minds, then why try? He set in motion a long, cruel experiment. Should ants being burned on the sidewalk revere the kid with the magnifying glass since they do not understand his intentions or motives? The kid is clearly being cruel when he could easily help the ants. If your god lets things like this happen, how can he be given credit for anything? Isn't he just letting good things happen too?
Sure, I can see why a nonbeliever would not revere God, or understand why I do. I'm a believer so I guess I understand God a little better than you nonbelievers!
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:05 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,146,313 times
Reputation: 1785
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
Is it right to punish innocent people for what their ancestors did?
Logic, I do not view the creation account as literal and I am not a a YEC. In fact my POV is more stemic (?) from the teachings of Jesus.

My POV is more that of a Universalist hence I do not believe in a collective hell.

To answer your questions with two quotes.

"..I shall remember their sins no more.."
".. I shall write my commandments on their hearts.."

When it comes to the OT, if you read my posts, you will likely find I argue from the same side of the fence as you.

This article I wrote may help you understand how I think.

What is Sin?
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:26 AM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,374,053 times
Reputation: 1321
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Logic, I do not view the creation account as literal and I am not a a YEC. In fact my POV is more stemic (?) from the teachings of Jesus.

My POV is more that of a Universalist hence I do not believe in a collective hell.

To answer your questions with two quotes.

"..I shall remember their sins no more.."
".. I shall write my commandments on their hearts.."

When it comes to the OT, if you read my posts, you will likely find I argue from the same side of the fence as you.

This article I wrote may help you understand how I think.

What is Sin?
Why did God create sin? Why did he create punishment? If heaven exists then obviously a perfect sinless world is possible, yet he places us here first so we can suffer?

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
- Epicurus

Do you believe in a "tri-omni" god?
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,449 posts, read 13,911,504 times
Reputation: 6875
Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
Don't you all see? Why was the girl starving? Not enough money to buy food? Too many people in the world starving to help them all? For whatever reason, the government can't/won't feed all the people? It's not GOD that caused this situation...it's humans trying to rule themselves. This, to me, highlights exactly why we do need God's governance over the humans on earth. He is our creator, the only one who can solve ALL of the problems plaguing the earth.
Money may not be the problem. Many times people die in famines because of weather conditions. Who controls the weather?
If the starvation was caused by humans, why doesn't god punish those responsible? (Hint: because there is no god!)
If we had god's governance, as you state, nothing would change. In a situation such as the photo we would all be thanking god for all his "love" and "mercy", a bizarre and absurd thought, in my opinion.
Obviously, god can only create problems and solve nothing.
I think an appropriate caption for the photo would be "God's plans for you!"
Moderator cut: edit

Last edited by june 7th; 01-27-2009 at 07:35 PM..
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