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Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,706,106 times
Reputation: 10256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1
I see, so everyone who claims to have been a IRA member is to be believed, but those who deny membership are always lying?
I suppose even the ones eventually proved to have been falsely convicted, were believed to have been members when arrested by people such as yourself.
Did you and others ever apologize to those proved to be innocent, or just turned the page to a new chapter of accusations without evidence?
As to Adams specifically, please provide proof of your claims, as to the best of my research there is no evidence he was ever a member of the IRA.
He obviously has denied it for decades without waver.
Martin McGuinness obviously yes, the female SF member you recently made sexist comments about, yes again.
But Adams, this ought to be interesting.
`
Anyone in a certain age group heard Gerry Adams' name connected to the IRA for a very long time. Over and over his name was connected to the IRA. It doesn't matter if you were in the UK or the US. You heard it. I'm not on the same part of the political spectrum as Roscoe. I have no clue where I am compared to Dave, RJ, or Ulsterman, but I have no doubt that Gerry Adams was up to his eyeballs in the IRA. I'll say it point blank. I'm 68. I have zero doubt that Gerry Adams was part of the IRA and has plenty of blood on his hands.
How anyone of alleged sense can view Adams as some kind of routine and balanced politician is beyond any thought of being using the grey cells rightly is head shaking. Sinn Fein could not really care a proverbial damn about whether for example Stormont exists or not. So head banged into so-called unity is all they care about and as democratic as me a strong Glaswegian wanting to live in competing Edinburgh. That so many people support that political mob is disgusting and not very properly democratic or sensible.
With someone such as yourself, this view does not come as a surprise.
That said, it is hard to fathom how anyone who looked at or hated SF cannot at least appreciate how they went from the bullet to the ballot.
Back in the day before the GFA, many a skeptic questioned Adams/McGuinness and the like, not believing they would ever come to the table in good faith, be able to accomplish a peaceful transition, much less adhere to it.
Yet many a skeptic was proved wrong as the days, months and years rolled along.
Despite a more peaceful and profitable NI as a result, it still sticks in some peoples craw to this very second.
Those like Blair, Ahern, Trimble, Hume, Mitchel, Clinton and others have all earned a well deserved pat on the back, yet to some Adams should not be included.
The facts however speak for themselves, and without SF as an honest broker, the GFA never would have come to pass.
Yet today when pressed as to why SF followed through on their promises by helping to craft and holding to the GFA, excuses like they had no choice are echoed throughout the hardcore British perspective. Other excuses to try to diminish what they had done, and continued to do, have been proffered as well.
As I have said, my belief of a possible peaceful future for NI was bolstered when two sworn enemies like Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness, could not only sit in government together, but actually became good friends to boot.
I know that to some, they didn't see it as progress, and instead were sickened by it. Some (not all) were hoping that Paisley would be proved to be wrong, hoping, even dare I say praying, that SF would finally show themsleves to not be brokers of peace.
Yet when you consider someone as hardcore as Paisley could make a change in his mind and heart, it is surprising some are still to this day skeptical.
I wouldn't expect them to invite Adams over for dinner, but you'd at least think some could look to those like Paisley, and realize that if he could see his way clear, they should be able to do so as well.
One seriously wonders what (if anything) Adams could have done from the late 1990's to be even partially redeemed in some of the hardcore minds still condemning him.
I totally understand what you're saying about non-standard language. I deal with that with my immigrant grandfather's family on the continent, but the records are intact except for one generation. The difference with the Scotch-Irish is that the records are so spotty, especially in the colonies, and for various reasons, the name may have changed.
The "Irish" name and "Scottish" name that I've mentioned are a perfect example of what you are saying about the east coast of Ulster and the west coast of Scotland being one. When DNA tested, it was discovered that they are the same family.
This is from the Ulster-Scots Centre in Belfast. Might not be able to read all the names but it does go to show the people with names who would later play a part in America and elsewhere.
I remember the duration of "The Troubles" from late teenager to adult. It was terrible, and I was not there.
The IRA was a bunch of murderers, not one bit better than Charles Manson and his troupe of weirdos, only it ground on for years, day after day.
This is just my opinion, but to not hold their feet to the flames escapes me. It's like the people who hold Bonnie and Clyde or the James Gang in high regard instead of the common criminal murderers that they were.
Came across this.. Glamour and Fame
Outlaws were usually ruthless and violent people who terrorized and threatened others. But over the years, television and films have glamorized many outlaws. Living outside the law is often seem as exciting, daring and dangerous. Many films about Wild West outlaws, such as Jesse James and Billy the Kid, show them as daring heroes rather than criminals.
Later, modern-day outlaws became known as gangsters. Bonnie and Clyde were two of the best-known gangsters of all time. Although they killed many people and died violently, they are shown as a good-looking, glamorous couple in the 1967 film starring Faye Dunaway and Warren Beatty.
Maybe this is how those who supported the IRA saw them but like the above the reality was different. Have to say that some Irish writers did come out and tell the truth about the IRA. And there was at least one old IRA man of the past who regretted what happened. But the IRA/Sinn Fein still get the votes despite the trail of the dead and injured they have left behind them. It says a lot about those who vote for them.
Ok, so I asked for proof of Adams being an actual member of the IRA, and you provide a critic of his opinion of what Adams was up to for many years during the trouble.
I find it funny how you do not trust anything someone in the IRA might have to say, but yet when it suits your purpose, you want to take it as gospel.
For the sake of argument, put semantics aside (since we know Adams had a huge influence on the IRA) and answer me this question.
Why is it so important for you to put Adams in an IRA uniform?
Is he not still the same despicable person (in your estimation), regardless of whether he was ever an official member?
Ok, so I asked for proof of Adams being an actual member of the IRA, and you provide a critic of his opinion of what Adams was up to for many years during the trouble.
I find it funny how you do not trust anything someone in the IRA might have to say, but yet when it suits your purpose, you want to take it as gospel.
For the sake of argument, put semantics aside (since we know Adams had a huge influence on the IRA) and answer me this question.
Why is it so important for you to put Adams in an IRA uniform?
Is he not still the same despicable person (in your estimation), regardless of whether he was ever an official member?
`
No.
I provided evidence of a fellow IRA member ( one of many ) confirming that Adams was the leader of the IRA - an organisation which Adams has consistently denied being a member of.
So not only is he a liar but also a coward.
Along with being a murderer,of course.
The more you pursue your ludicrous theories the more it makes you look like an idiot.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,706,106 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulsterman
This is from the Ulster-Scots Centre in Belfast. Might not be able to read all the names but it does go to show the people with names who would later play a part in America and elsewhere.
That's an interesting list, from what I can see of it.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,706,106 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulsterman
Came across this.. Glamour and Fame
Outlaws were usually ruthless and violent people who terrorized and threatened others. But over the years, television and films have glamorized many outlaws. Living outside the law is often seem as exciting, daring and dangerous. Many films about Wild West outlaws, such as Jesse James and Billy the Kid, show them as daring heroes rather than criminals.
Later, modern-day outlaws became known as gangsters. Bonnie and Clyde were two of the best-known gangsters of all time. Although they killed many people and died violently, they are shown as a good-looking, glamorous couple in the 1967 film starring Faye Dunaway and Warren Beatty.
Maybe this is how those who supported the IRA saw them but like the above the reality was different. Have to say that some Irish writers did come out and tell the truth about the IRA. And there was at least one old IRA man of the past who regretted what happened. But the IRA/Sinn Fein still get the votes despite the trail of the dead and injured they have left behind them. It says a lot about those who vote for them.
Ah, yes, that Bonnie & Clyde movie was certainly on my mind. Movies, especially, have transformed garden variety killers into glamorous personalities. My mother remembered when Bonnie and Clyde were on the loose. She was taken aback at how glamorous the movie made them seem.
Gerry Adams can deny all he wants, and younger people might swallow it hook line and sinker, but Karma always wins in the end.
Anyone in a certain age group heard Gerry Adams' name connected to the IRA for a very long time. Over and over his name was connected to the IRA. It doesn't matter if you were in the UK or the US. You heard it. I'm not on the same part of the political spectrum as Roscoe.
I have no clue where I am compared to Dave, RJ, or Ulsterman, but I have no doubt that Gerry Adams was up to his eyeballs in the IRA. I'll say it point blank. I'm 68. I have zero doubt that Gerry Adams was part of the IRA and has plenty of blood on his hands.
Indeed you are older than I, and as speculated might have been going into different bars. Still I have little doubt such donation jars existed back in the day.
Now on to Adams.
While you do not seem as invested as Roscoe regarding him, whether he was or was not an actual member of the IRA, what difference does it make at this stage?
Just Martin McGuinness became deputy first minster in NI government, he was a known IRA member and undoubtedly killed various people over his career in the IRA.
If a bombastic bigot toward Catholics like Ian Paisley (who hated the IRA) could work with such a man, and eventually become good friends, certainly Adams should not be as big a pariah.
As to your question regarding comparison with some of the British posters in this discussion, it is clear that despite being American like myself, you definitely are more in line with their viewpoint.
That is fine, and there is nothing wrong with it.
However when you seem to push the envelope to try and defend certain aspects of their views without a factual basis, it calls into question why?
The best example is exploring the sectarianism of NI and parts of mainland UK. When some here want to ignore such things, or claim it is stirring the pot to examine it, you claim we have similar problems in America(as if that diminishes it elsewhere).
I would know if we had any such problems, especially those that permeate sports or other leisurely parts of American life.
[That sectarianism exists in NI is not news, far from it. But to think every aspect of life carries with it some us vs. them mentality is undoubtedly part of the root cause for the two tribes not to get along]
The only examples you have proffered was the KKK back a hundred years ago or so. Granted they were anti-Catholic bigots, but that was the least of their hate filled focus. They were hardcore Democrats who hated blacks in particular, and generally all minorities.
Yet even if we were to use them as an example, it hardly reflected overall American culture. That is especially true when compared to NI.
I have never heard of an example where sports fans revel in hate filled songs, and support certain teams based on their own religion, or the hatred of someone elses religion.
The Eagles fans might hate the Giants, but it is not based on religion, race, etc.
So when you get a chance, do watch some of those videos I posted about the soccer teams and their bigoted fans across the pond.
Despite some denials in this discussion, when a famous player and coach of the Rangers said he was shocked at songs (sung by his fans) about killing Catholics, I don't see how I can be singled out as claiming something false on that score.
Anyone watching that or the other video will see and hear how fans are aware of it, yet gladly pass it down from generation to the next with pride.
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