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I will never deny religion can be harmful. It can also be for the good. Just like people, because that is what religion is, people.
Exactly. Obviously it is your obsession.
Not cool. You are wrong - it is too often the last ditch Christian threat. It is as wrong as saying that we are obsessed about the cross, because we always find ourselves arguing against the resurrection -claim. And indeed almost as wrong as saying that we are obsessed about ID - because religious creationists keep bringing it up as an apologetic.
What is this tactic of theist apologists to insist on forcing on atheism a canard that everyone can see isn't what we say or do, just to find some way of discrediting us?
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander
I can understanding battling for one's belief. Repeatedly asking questions and pretending they were not answered and then pouncing one a single word or phrase to attack all others to be is a dishonest manner to have a dialogue.
I agree. I can understand the instinct to make a belief that gives one a sense of place in a society becoming Personal that battling for a belief is like battling for one's status in society.
Just my theory
But the methods are more crafty than logical. More often dishonest than sound. Fiddle the evidence, fiddle the logic, dish out some fake news. Get them cancelled if possible; it's the 'shut up and go away' ethic I saw as soon an New Atheism got started.
When I was 5 my mother told me Satan would use my non believing father to draw me away from God.
I grew up around people (few relatives, strangers, various friends of the family) attempting to interpret Revelations. I am certain they all meant well; however, I am still mortified at the thought of hornets with human faces chasing mankind. No place to hide! I'll burn you with something hotter than the sun!
Oh my gosh! I'll have none of that, please!
I grew up around people (few relatives, strangers, various friends of the family) attempting to interpret Revelations. I am certain they all meant well; however, I am still mortified at the thought of hornets with human faces chasing mankind. No place to hide! I'll burn you with something hotter than the sun!
Oh my gosh! I'll have none of that, please!
Hanlon's razor: "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".
If they are manipulators I don't see what there is to get out of it on a message board.
I sometimes ask 'is that ignorance or dishonesty?' And I answer myself 'Trans - you already know the answer - they don't care; all they care about is winning however they can do it". And the Facts don't count, winning does, because their 'facts' are faith -based and if facts don't support it; the facts are wrong. Haven't we seen that is resort to denial? I think we all have.
I can't be sure. Maybe one of our deconverts can tell us, but I think there is a feeling of being part of the resistance to increasing irreligion, or they wouldn't bother if they were as confident of religion winning as they keep saying, but I think it's also personal: they have to dismiss the doubts and questions that they have to dismiss daily. And smacking atheists down, however it needs doing, is what they have to do.
I think they hate people raising the question that they have to work so hard to keep out of their heads. Because they know they are good questions. Problem of evil is one of the top deconverters, even though theism has a lot of room for debate, there. It must bother them a lot.
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Originally Posted by cb2008
If you are going to attack religion as a great evil, recognize you are attacking people. If your aim is to turn people away from religion, then be prepared to provide, or help provide what religion does for those who turn to religion. If your a sexist and a racist, and proud of it, then dont say anything at all. Really. (The you is a general you, not you L8)
The US was founded on the principle of freedom to practice your religion. That is an important right. As citizens our only duty is to keep it out of state affairs. This is the reason why the pledge of allegiance is problematic.
We are not attacking people; we are attacking ideas that are bad, claims that are (we argue) false, and a thing that is Not in the interests of people.
We are not against religion as a right to believe, but we are against religion as parasite on society that takes over the host and uses the family as enablers.
Humanism has an ideal of a society where people can practice their own religion (within the law), but religions will (if they can dominate) see other religions off. The ideal - a Christian America - would be as bad news for other religions as an Islamic America.
I know the apologetic that atheism has to match the charity work religion does - 'rice and Bibles' - old colonial method. Atheism provides what religion can't no matter how much money they have - reason.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-06-2021 at 09:55 AM..
I have Never seen covid referred to as 'China virus' here. Who does that? Who attacks Chinese because of where it started (some are saying it started in a Thailand illegal animals market). Racists looking for any excuse? It isn't atheism, as an idea or a campaign.
And Islam, though the people are quite nice as people, is a nasty religion, and with all the best mechanics in place to dominate others and all the worst to live under. At least in the Humanist view. It funds and encourages terrorism and violence is more a first resort than a last one. Not unlike military dictatorships in that respect.
You really think that's great? You really want to bash atheism for seeing that as religious problem no. 2 after Right wing Christian fundamentalism?
Aren't you taking the wrong side?
You speak as if you know all about what is going on in the US. Most people do know because US news does suck up all the air. And now you suddenly have no idea who calls it China virus. One can engage with some one who is truly ignorant. To engage with someone who plays ignorant as a debating tool is a waste of time. Have a life.
You speak as if you know all about what is going on in the US. Most people do know because US news does suck up all the air. And now you suddenly have no idea who calls it China virus. One can engage with some one who is truly ignorant. To engage with someone who plays ignorant as a debating tool is a waste of time. Have a life.
Would anyone else like to have that one? I bet your mouths are watering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
There is absolutely no way for me to influence someone who feels attacked by my thoughts from not doing so. I can be sweet as pie but if that's how they see the world then that's on them.
Why shouldn't proud sexists and racists be allowed to speak? I'm not comfortable telling people what they can and cannot think and say. Do you want the job of deciding what ideas should encounter resistance and which should not? I'll try like hell to make my point but in the end, it violates my sacred cow of personal autonomy so I (think I)have a high tolerance for different viewpoints. It's in the resistance to these outdated views is where minds are changed anyway.
There is nothing as of yet to replace what religion gives people. If they conclude that their religious ideas are false then I'll give them credit to make their own way. They don't need me to provide the answers I don't have either.
I agree that people should say what they think, even if we disagree. I also know there is a case about making 'hate -speech' something that gets jumped on; even a crime. I'm not happy about that. Especially as it seems selective. It is a nice little tactic to get your opponents' views labelled as hate, and you got the silenced. But I can see the case for making demonising epithets a no no.
Would anyone else like to have that one? I bet your mouths are watering.
Honestly Transponder, how adequately are you able to asses the U.S. from across the pond? Yes, you can hit pockets, but pockets do not reflect the whole...remember the right and left wings still comprise the same bird...we like our freedoms.
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It's Flounce, folks.
