California wants to push more welfare recipients to work (Industry: universities, maintenance)

[TVC15]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

More babbling. I have never lionized the poor and uneducated. I have never suggested they are noble. Never suggested that, given power, they would rule the world with benevolent excellence.

I simply point out that vilification of the low is BS, particularly while preaching that education is the answer, and that the wealthy are society's caretakers. It isn't. They aren't.

Your babbling on about how the poor give the rich their power is meaningless to this discussion. If there is any shame in the exchange, it should be leveled at those sophisticated and expert at what they do ... that is the level at which knowledgeable will is applied to taking advantage of others at the expense of society and the environment -- purely for personal gain and gratification. Once a person becomes fully aware of their actions is the point at which full responsibility is called for. Until then it is the frailty of undeveloped human nature. Would the poor do the same damage if they had the chance? Undoubtedly. But they aren't. So if anyone wants to call BS, level the call at the actual perps. Simple. It's about intellectual honesty and spiritual integrity.

I feel so sorry for you...man o man. OK I am an educated expert at blood transfusion antibody workups that help to keep blood transfusions safe for people who need blood in order to keep them alive (and DAMN proud of it!)...how in the hell is that "taking advantage of others at the expense of society and the environment -- purely for personal gain and gratification" ?????

Please get a grip...

[Juelle]

You know... both my father and later my stepfather were in active combat in the Vietnam war, one Marine the other Navy, and they both came home addicted to heroine and alcohol. They may not have lost limbs or suffered injuries that prevented them from working, but it did however affect both of them mentally.

What baffles me and contrasts other Vets that I have heard and read about is that they were functioning heroine addicts for close to 15 years, both secured jobs immediately after being discharged, and held the same job until they recently retired. Both had a middle-class income one with General Motors as an engineer and my stepfather with Chevron in drilling and refinery. And what is more baffling is that they both went into rehab once, and one time only, and are now counselors with NA and other rehab programs. Neither of them know each other, but their lives mirror each other. In my fantasy world I say the military coded them to function this way. LOL

Anyway, both dealt with their own individual demons of war, but rather than cry victim and succumb to these demons, they rose above it and kicked the demon of victimization in its butt by taking advantage of counseling and support groups. Unlike my father who declined filing a claim for disability for his mental suffering of war, my stepfather networked and found out his rights, rights he states the Fed does not tell you about, and ended up being declared 100% disabled 30-some years after being discharged. His Vet disability plus his retirement is larger than his income when he was employed. Although he worked and made a substantial income and savings until he retired, he did so struggling with mental illness that affected the entire family. I overcame the affects of being a co-dependent to his illness and growing up in a predominately African American neighborhood in Compton.

What I learned is that your income-level doesn't change anything when there is desolation and disadvantage all around you. Even though I was raised in a home with a decent income, we shared the same neighborhood with the less advantaged, and I was exposed to some of the same elements of living in the ghetto, however rather than fall victim to the affects my stepfather was suffering from being in the war, gang violence, drugs, etc., it was my desire to rise above these affects which made me determine when I was in elementary school that I was going to push myself in school to succeed and not succumb to the negative affects of living around the less advantaged. I looked at alcoholics and drug addicts and made the decision then and there that I would never drink or do drugs, and neither have ever parted my lips, nose or veins. As a teenager when everyone was getting high and drinking, I chose to get lost in books. I would read the dictionary and rather than watch TV I read the TV guide. LOL It did not matter to me as long as I could escape through the pages to a life outside of the hood. I carried this same principle into college, held a 3.8 GPA, and earned membership to honor societies.

And you know, I moved away to better neighborhoods, and then returned to Los Angeles because I was trying to recapture that sense of community, even if it meant paying high rent for a 1 bedroom. I was willing to be around the people, in the community that was once close-knit. But what I found when I returned was greater desolation and it wasn't because there are not jobs, but simply because people are not choosing to do whatever needs to be done to rise above their situation. The times are different, people are no longer striving to rise above their present circumstances because social programs have become so lenient, and encourage permanency rather than a temporary fix.

To sum this all up... every person in life is afforded the right to choose. And yes, people fall on hard times due to losing a job, or becoming disabled and not having the ability to work, but again the United States offers every social program known to man to help people overcome hardships, but they should only take advantage of them as a TEMPORARY stepping stone to becoming independent. Sadly, the government allows what should be a temporary stepping stone to become a permanent fixture in people's life. But I guess its as someone else posted about redistributing jobs, if they go to work then that will take away employment from someone else. Hmmm... maybe that's why people are allowed to hang on social programs their entire life, sort of keeps them confined to a certain station in life. But again, that is that individual's choice to accept such confinement with the use of social programs.


Anyway, I gave Los Angeles a second chance, but its glory days are over and I'm out of here. I'd rather live in the heat with no palm trees, or picturesque view of the mountains and oceans in another State that offers affordable housing, and governs their social programs a little better than California. I'm sorry, I'm not willing to allow the State of California to suck me dry another day because of its high taxes and cost-of-living in order to support the influx of illegal immigrants, and the able-bodied citizens that have chosen to live on the system as victims with brainwashed excuses as to why they can't find a job. Oh and let me not start on the other tool to keep people out of the workforce and be able to make money off them by hoarding them as prisoners due to the 3-strikes law (another topic for another day).

[Juelle]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

What would Jesus think (No, I'm not religious ... just wondering.)

Jesus was not a man of excuses, nor did He allow people to remain in their condition wallowing in their self-pity. He also said that if a man does not work, neither shall he eat. In other words, he expected all able-bodied people to be self-sufficient and earn their keep.

Remember the lame man at the pool of Bethesda, which is called Beautiful, in John 5:6-8 When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?" "Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me." Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked. The day on which this took place was a Sabbath,


Notice that when Jesus saw that he had been in his condition for a long time that when he asked him if he wanted to get well, the first thing the man gave him was an excuse. Jesus, didn't even address his excuse, he just told him, GET UP! He did not sit there and pat the man on the back and give him statistics about the number of people who are born lame or became lame as a result of war or some other environmental condition. He did not say, well... unemployment is high, and if you get up and start walking and eventually working, that's going to put someone else out of a job, so why don't you just continue to sit there until the economy gets better. No, he simply said, GET UP! Pick up! and Walk!

For some people, they have been ill to the conditions of poverty for a long time, and each time someone has given them leads for jobs, and information about programs to help them move forward, they come up with excuses, and like the man at the pool of Bethesda, someone who wasn't filled with excuses, but hungry to rise above their condition, beats them to it.

Also, notice that Jesus did not care about government regulations because it all happened on the Sabbath. He was like I don't care about the Sabbath, the economy, high unemployment, nobody is accepting applications on a Sunday! Jesus said, stop looking at your circumstances... GET UP! Pick up! and Walk!

[malamute]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

More babbling. I have never lionized the poor and uneducated. I have never suggested they are noble. Never suggested that, given power, they would rule the world with benevolent excellence.

I simply point out that vilification of the low is BS, particularly while preaching that education is the answer, and that the wealthy are society's caretakers. It isn't. They aren't.

Your babbling on about how the poor give the rich their power is meaningless to this discussion. If there is any shame in the exchange, it should be leveled at those sophisticated and expert at what they do ... that is the level at which knowledgeable will is applied to taking advantage of others at the expense of society and the environment -- purely for personal gain and gratification. Once a person becomes fully aware of their actions is the point at which full responsibility is called for. Until then it is the frailty of undeveloped human nature. Would the poor do the same damage if they had the chance? Undoubtedly. But they aren't. So if anyone wants to call BS, level the call at the actual perps. Simple. It's about intellectual honesty and spiritual integrity.

The poor are doing a lot of damage. They're the ones with the out-of-control birth rates and so the fast increasing child poverty rates, they are the ones having children they can never afford, the poor have the most drug and alcohol addictions. The poor require vasts sums of money to be confiscated from the people who worked for a living.

The poor need to change their lifestyles, they need to start valuing responsibility, self-control, start feeding the children they produce themselves or limit how many children they conceive.

[blauskies]

Originally Posted by TVC15

Man you rock young but wise one I'm done as well...bed time! Look forward to the din din and vino manana... oops actually today! Yikes off to sleep I go!

LMAO, can't get any more cheesy than this!

[blauskies]

Originally Posted by yeahthatguy

Max unemployment payouts are : $450 a week in California.

.

Yeah and in Florida the max payments are $275/week. That won't even cover rent for an average 1 bedroom apartment down here.

Have fun in Florida

[user_id]

Originally Posted by Juelle

We have never, nor will we ever see zero unemployment, so stressing the 8.5 million is pointless because it could just mean that it is structural unemployment, which is why I stated that in order to secure a job one may need to garner a new skill.

No, its not pointless. The economy has a "natural unemployment rate", which in the US is considered to be around 4~5% and is due to market inefficiencies (e.g., people don't immediately get connected with employers). But the current unemployment rate is far higher than the natural rate, therefore there are many people that just aren't going to find jobs.

Unemployment in the US economy has been broad based as a result its not structural in nature.

Originally Posted by Juelle

my comments were directed towards the able-bodied portion of society that is not classified as unemployed, but rather free-loaders of the working-class.

There are different measures of unemployment, U-3 is the number that is typically reported. The most broad number is U-6, this includes discouraged workers, marginally attached workers and workers working part-time that want full-time work, currently U-6 is 14.8%. Labeling discouraged workers "free-loaders" is just another admit to disparage people that can't find work. Do we have "free-loaders" in our society? Sure....but most discouraged workers are people that just can't find work and have given up. Your typical discouraged worker is going to be someone 50+ that is sitting on the side-lines partially retired.....hoping that things improve.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by TVC15

OK I am an educated expert at blood transfusion antibody workups that help to keep blood transfusions safe for people who need blood in order to keep them alive (and DAMN proud of it!)...how in the hell is that "taking advantage of others at the expense of society and the environment -- purely for personal gain and gratification" ?????

Umm....it should be obvious that when he talks about "educated elite" he isn't referring to middle-class trades folk.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by Juelle

Sadly, the government allows what should be a temporary stepping stone to become a permanent fixture in people's life. But I guess its as someone else posted about redistributing jobs, if they go to work then that will take away employment from someone else.

Firstly, you're not getting my point about jobs. When talking about jobs there are two separate issues 1.) What one should do as an individual, 2.) The macroeconomic picture, that is how jobs are operating in the economy as a whole. You are focusing on #1 and trying to make conclusions about #2 and it makes no sense. For example, though it can certainly make sense for an individual to "create his/her own job" and try self-employment....this action doesn't necessarily add any jobs to the economy as a whole so your "created" job will come at the cost of someone else's job. The only thing that creates jobs, in the aggregate, is increased demand .

Now, as for the "permanent fixture", that isn't accurate. All Welfare programs are temporary and the only programs that extend beyond a few years are those that help children. But....as all kids grow up those aren't permanent either. When you talk about welfare, you're mostly talking about women and children not able bodied men.

Originally Posted by Juelle

I'd rather live in the heat with no palm trees, or picturesque view of the mountains and oceans in another State that offers affordable housing, and governs their social programs a little better than California.

If paying less for housing and being in a state with smaller social programs is what is going to make you happy....great....start packing your bags. I really don't know why people make comments like this...acting as if their personal choices make any difference to the state. There are many people that will happily take your place.....

[nullgeo]

Originally Posted by TVC15

I feel so sorry for you...man o man. OK I am an educated expert at blood transfusion antibody workups that help to keep blood transfusions safe for people who need blood in order to keep them alive (and DAMN proud of it!)...how in the hell is that "taking advantage of others at the expense of society and the environment -- purely for personal gain and gratification" ?????

Please get a grip...

I don't know -- but I guess you want this to be all about you -- and your "rise to the top" personal journey or something. You keep responding to things, angrily and defensively, that I haven't said. No one says YOU are "taking advantage of others", etc. And no one has said that all rich people or educated people do either.

You say you have earned two science degrees. I gather that none of your classes were in the science of logic?

• all well educated members of higher social echelons engage in world threatening destructive activities

is NOT the same as, nor follows from:
• all of the world's most threatening man-made destructive forces are created by well educated members of higher echelon classes

The statement I made that you referred to in your angry response says the later bullet-point statement ... you defensively respond to the former, which I guess you just made up in your mind. Several recent responders are doing the same thing: defensively responding to assertions I never made.