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All jews cand gentiles alike are under the power of sin Romans 3 verse 9 and for context read the rest of the chapter . If you believe some did not sin before the law was introduced , what you are saying is they did not need a savior
If their sin was not reckoned against them,,,why would they NEED a savior?
He did come into the world as a Jew, circumcised a Jew, and followed the Torah as a Jew....hmmm I guess He was a Jew.
I am an inwardly Jew....as Paul stated.
Christ came to free the captives...Jews....in covenant, with God
By that ransom, I, and inward Jew, just as Ruth and Rahab....are saved, because that covenant He made with Adam to Noah to Abraham to Davd, has been reconciled.
I think you know i do not believe in the trinity. Let's not hijack this thread about the discussing it.
First...there is no partition between them any more.
Second.....
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Now read Acts:
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Why is Paul saying they must repent then?
Because he is preaching them the gospel.....the LAW.
The LAW - The GOSPEL
Read:
Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Now read:
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
ALL - is all those who were under the LAW - Those of the line of Adam.
Those in covenantal relationship with God.
The Gospel is the fulfillment of the LAW from Adam, to Moses to Christ.
Through Abraham we are told that this promise is granted by faith.
Your mistake is you think Adam is the father of all mankind, in that he is the biological head of mankind, which he is not.
If their sin was not reckoned against them,,,why would they NEED a savior?
Therefore just as sin entered the world through one man, Why would they need a Savior ? , because death came to all men, because all sinned. So they need a Savior because death came to all men. Romans 5 verse 12.
Therefore just as sin entered the world through one man, Why would they need a Savior ? , because death came to all men, because all sinned. So they need a Savior because death came to all men. Romans 5 verse 12.
Good night
What 'world' KOSMOS did it enter?? You havent answered the question, and now think you have somehow won?? lol...
Not taken into account. So does this mean they didn't die? Hmm. How about they did die bodily, but not a spiritual death because it was not reckoned against them.
Death of the body is the wages of sin. If no one died a spiritual death because they did not know the law, that means Cain never died a spiritual death, nor Nimrod, nor any of the antediluvian's who died during the deluge of Noah ... Etc ...
What are you trying to say here? That everyone who died before the law was given get to go to heaven by default because they didn't know what sin was? I'm not sure i'm following you here ...
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Mankind would take no thought for sin, because God took no thought for sin. They were alive apart from the law, or haven't you read?
If God took no thought for sin before the Law was given, then why did he put Adam and Even out of the garden and curse the earth because of them, and why did he cause the great deluge of Noah, and why did he burn Sodom and Gomorrah?
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And the verse just before that is ...
Sin ENTERED the WORLD(KOSMOS)? WHERE?? It is why they were kicked out. Adam was given this WORLD(KOSMOS), fallen in nature and darkness, thanks to him. It is not the entire earth. Or do you actually believe Adam was the first EVER human being? Hmm...
The entire earth was cursed on account of him, and so everything dies ... When Adam and eve where created and before they fell from grace the earth existed in a paradisaical state, and after Adam and Eve fell they were cursed and the earth was cursed because of them and sin and death entered the entire creation thereby.
You are really confusing the issues. Whatever i believe about Adam does not necessarily apply, what does apply is the myth of creation which Paul uses to describe the sinful disposition of the creation because of an original act of disobedience, and how that act of disobedience caused the whole creation to be cursed by sin and death. And so it follows thereafter that just as the original disobedience of man caused all creation to be cursed by sin and death, so also by the obedience of Christ the whole creation will be blessed righteousness and life.
Again, i don't know where your going with all these questions or implications ... Such as "was Adam really the first man", or "is it true that all people sin", or "did Christ really die for the sin of all people"?
Talk about straying for the original precepts of the faith ...
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And then we read ...
It now says the 'many' were MADE sinners. Why 'many' and not 'all'? And how were they MADE sinners? Made as in what, exactly? Made as in offspring? Hmm...
The many ... This is a common method of teaching, by repetition and reiteration, redundantly repeating and idea through new form of expression. Say the same thing in a different way. It helps build neuronal connections via the association of ideas and there expression. Teaches you how to think about the same thing from different perspectives.
"The Many" is just another way of saying "All" ... They mean the exact same thing within the context of Romans 5 ...
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Ahh, you think this is talking about the flesh?? Ok, now I see where you have erred. Everything on this planet dies, or haven't you heard. Does this mean everything on the planet has sinned? And you all say I don't use commmon sense?
My goodness man, yes everyone is a sinner(only Christ being excluded), how can you get so mixed up that you cant even understand this simple truth? The only one who has never sinned was Jesus Christ, and he is not counted among "all people" or in "the many", who have sinned and who have been cursed because of the sin of Adam, because he was born from above and never sinned. The earth itself and everything that comes from the earth was cursed on account of Adams sin(Gen 3:17)...
Your getting more and more mixed up as go down through your post ...
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So, for some, better to have not heard of the law, right?
I disagree, i believe that only when we know the law and are given repentance to acknowledge that the law is good, that even though we die because the law condemns us, we are able to appreciate and receive the grace of God and the free gift of life and salvation in Christ ...
We must first die before we can be resurrected. And what is planted and buried is corruptible, while what is reaped and resurrected as incorruptible.
Sin and the law of sin and death are all necessary parts of the purpose of God to bring about his plan for all things in his creation. If we never knew sin, we would never truly know or appreciate righteousness. If we had never experienced evil in our lives, we would never truly know or appreciate what is Good.
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Ahh, original sin, huh? sorry, don't believe that doctine either. The whole world(KOSMOS) is who Jesus is the propitiation for. Tell someone who have never heard of such a thing, and they will look blindly at you like you were crazy or something. Let the religious dogma go, and learn..
I don't believe that we inherit the sin of Adam, but i believe the entire creation was cursed and made subject to the vanity of sin and death and were caused to be spiritually dying and enslaved to the carnal appetites and instinct.
Again i am having a hard time following you ...
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Again, you refer to the flesh. "Look past the flesh and these dull cow eyes." - Agent Smith
Are you inebriated? ...
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Sounds so snappy. How did Adam affect the curse of sin? Was it not by HIS SIN that HE WAS CURSED? And you say my version of God is messed up? Your version of God says a man is a sinner who is a newborn, just by being born. Interesting. Show me in scripture, without using David's mother who sinned and brought David into conception.
I never said i believe all people are born with sin, but they are born into bondage to sin by the corruptible bodies which are cursed on account of the sin of Adam. And because of this corruptible body all humans are predisposed to sin by natural instinct.
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I know,,,been studying it. Have you? Really?
Yes, really ...
Peace ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-02-2010 at 11:44 PM..
I don't know if you agree with Mike555 on most issues, but he says that repentence is NOT required for salvation. Look up all the repent verses and see if they really say it is. This is one thing I can agree with Mike on, but I will add that Jesus is the Savior without our help. We don't save ourselves. It is a complete work of God.
I missed that...sorry...However, I'd say it is used poetically or colloquially as 'world'...[SIZE=3][SIZE=3]
[/SIZE][/SIZE]κόσμος
kosmos
kos'-mos
Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.
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