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I believe that the tests of whether or nor a person or even a teaching or doctrine is godly, is the fruit of the tree test. What fruit does the teaching of ET and Annihilation bare in the lives of those that believe it or are told about it. Does it give them peace, hope, faith, love? Or does it produce fear, restlessness, doubt, hate?
I have heard comfort more often than not.
For you maybe....since you appear to be unable to even take the word of God as a whole....
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Its obvious that some people cant hear what the spirit is saying, and i believe in most cases if they are religious they will end up being allot like the pharisees, and their fruit and doctrines will testify of it.
Last I checked Universalism is not considered part of the Catholic or Reformed church...which make up over a Billion people in the world....for over a milennia now it seems....pretty clear fruit bearing evidence there...but to each his own.
I have heard comfort more often than not.
For you maybe....since you appear to be unable to even take the word of God as a whole....
Last I checked Universalism is not considered part of the Catholic or Reformed church...which make up over a Billion people in the world....for over a milennia now it seems....pretty clear fruit bearing evidence there...but to each his own.
Your appeal to authority is pointless. The Roman Catholic and the Reformed churches both have their hands stained in blood, and many of their false doctrines are stained in blood as well, especially the doctrine of ET.
You only prove my point. Though Christian Universalists are among every denomination of Christianity, many who are not willing to reveal their true convictions for fear of reproach and isolation, the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation certain stands apart from the traditional and orthodox powers of Christianity during the past 1500 years.
Your appeal to authority is pointless. The Roman Catholic and the Reformed churches both have their hands stained in blood, and many of their false doctrines are stained in blood as well, especially the doctrine of ET.
You only prove my point. Though Christian Universalists are among every denomination of Christianity, many who are not willing to reveal their true convictions for fear of reproach and isolation, the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation certain stands apart from the traditional and orthodox powers of Christianity during the past 1500 years.
You are generalizing. I am talking about the body of Christ has universally rejected the doctrine of Universalism. The doctrine of Universalism was founded on gnostic principles and erred eschatological themes.
You ony prove my point, their fear is tantamount to the subject at hand.
Why fear? I don't, and yet, futurists on this site, and in life seem to not reproach or isolate me either...I wonder why.....
The fact is...your approach to ET and others is what is tantamount.
Not only is your attempt at exegsis of the scriptures to prove your point is faulty from the onset, it lacks hermeneutical consistency. Yes, you may convince one or two here and there, but the fact remains, the refutation is paramount, and is steeped with Biblical consistency and accuracy.
You have failed in seeing the covenantal theme that exists throughout the Bible and that it is that covenant, that man must enter into to be saved.
Mankind is not saved.
Christ saved the covenant that God had made with man in Adam, which requires faith in Christ to have eternal life. Without that faith in Him, man is dead, and will expire, and never be raised to life again. He ceases to exist, as he never had a spirit to begin with. Those in the Old Covenant status are raised to life and judged by their works, and James stated, that faith without works is dead. Their works justifies their faith in God.
There is no "raising" of the dead who believed in Christ. They are already raised to life when they are baptized by the Holy Spirit.
Your appeal to authority is pointless. The Roman Catholic and the Reformed churches both have their hands stained in blood, and many of their false doctrines are stained in blood as well, especially the doctrine of ET.
In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth. Revelation 18:24.
I agree. It is ridiculous for the masses to appeal to an authority which clearly doesn't have a clue as to what the love of God truly means. Maybe there are people who love their enemies sitting in those pews, but the people higher up the chain don't, and the people are loyal to the Church system and what it teaches, not to Christ's spirit. The eternal torment doctrine is the foundation of the church, and people need to start asking why. No one, in the end, will be found innocent because we all are connected to some terrible things. This is the truth. Though, Revelation 5:13 sounds like a happy ending.
Rome used to be the target of the Protestants, who claimed the Catholics were the ones being spoken of in Revelation all throughout Rome's rule, but just like the Catholics, the Protestants are on the wrong track and they don't even know it, and the Bible they preach from condemns them. Sound familiar (Jews)? The Protestants became a political force in league with many people around the globe who started wars and oppressed the true spirit of Christ, all in the name of "truth." Pat Robertson, for instance, has connections to Eric Prince who started Blackwater (Now, XE).
There is no city under the sun which has so clear a title to catholic blood - guiltiness as Rome. The guilt of the blood shed under the heathen emperors has not been removed under the Popes, but hugely multiplied. Nor is Rome accountable only for that which hath been shed in the city, but for that shed in all the earth. For at Rome under the Pope, as well as under the heathen emperors, were the bloody orders and edicts given: and wherever the blood of holy men was shed, there were the grand rejoicings for it. Revelation 18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth."
Last edited by herefornow; 11-05-2010 at 02:26 PM..
You are generalizing. I am talking about the body of Christ has universally rejected the doctrine of Universalism. The doctrine of Universalism was founded on gnostic principles and erred eschatological themes.
You ony prove my point, their fear is tantamount to the subject at hand.
Why fear? I don't, and yet, futurists on this site, and in life seem to not reproach or isolate me either...I wonder why.....
The fact is...your approach to ET and others is what is tantamount.
Not only is your attempt at exegsis of the scriptures to prove your point is faulty from the onset, it lacks hermeneutical consistency. Yes, you may convince one or two here and there, but the fact remains, the refutation is paramount, and is steeped with Biblical consistency and accuracy.
You have failed in seeing the covenantal theme that exists throughout the Bible and that it is that covenant, that man must enter into to be saved.
Mankind is not saved.
Christ saved the covenant that God had made with man in Adam, which requires faith in Christ to have eternal life. Without that faith in Him, man is dead, and will expire, and never be raised to life again. He ceases to exist, as he never had a spirit to begin with. Those in the Old Covenant status are raised to life and judged by their works, and James stated, that faith without works is dead. Their works justifies their faith in God.
There is no "raising" of the dead who believed in Christ. They are already raised to life when they are baptized by the Holy Spirit.
You make false claims as usual ... In the first five hundred years the majority of Christians believed and taught Universal Salvation. Only after Rome made Christianity the state religion did the doctrine of UR become marginalized and the doctrine of ET made the orthodox teaching of the Roman Church.
That is the truth, and those are the facts ...
The fundamentalist Futurists dispensationalists would reproach you and isolate you as well simply for being a preterist, were it not for the fact that you support them in their teaching that UR is false doctrine here on this forum.
On Youtube, the christian backlash against full preterism is much more apparent say, than it is here on City-Data. Just because they dont say it, being that you are one of the more vocal attackers of biblical Christian universalism, doesn't mean they dont think it. Its one of those, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, type of deals ... Until you go to a forum where Universalism is not even allowed to be discussed, such as the Christian Forum over on CARM, though CARM has its own preterists as well who defend the position ... Then you would be reproached.
Not to mention the fact that i have seen other threads here where it was said outright that preterism was a false doctrine and those who teach it false teachers, so i don't even know what you are talking about.
You wrote ...
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The fact is...your approach to ET and others is what is tantamount.
Tantamount to what? ...
I believe that it is your hermeneutic and your exegesis are flawed, more than many others in fact.
I have not failed, i have succeeded in seeing that the promise of the Good news is for all people, and for all nations. You are the one who fail to recognize the complete and absolute victory of Christ over sin and death and throughout all creation, and his complete success in accomplishing everything that God sent him to do, which was to accomplish his desires, which is that all people be saved.
You say, mankind in not saved ... Yet the scriptures teach implicitly and specifically without any room for misunderstanding that not only is Christ the savior of the world, but that he is the savior of all people.
What you call proper exegesis and consistent hermeneutics is what i call twisting the scriptures to make them say what you have been taught to believe that they are saying(or what you want to believe they are saying).
You say that if a person dies before they believe on Christ they will never be resurrected, yet again the scriptures teach specifically of the resurrection of the wicked and unbelieving. You just keep reinventing the Gospel as you see fit ... It doesnt change the truth.
And you deny the resurrection even of those that believe ...
Your false teachings are obvious enough for everyone to see ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-05-2010 at 03:59 PM..
My friend Gary Amirault used to believe the Bible teaches annihilation.
But he changed to believing that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
Here is a snippet from the introduction to his exposition explaining the reasons why he changed his mind.
"When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false."
(end of quote)
You're making me hungry Rodger, it's a good 2 hours before our rotisserie chicken is done, Set it and forget it mmmmmmmmm.
By the way i agree with you
Some people love their deep fried doctrine of eternal torture, or their fat free doctrine of annihilation ...
The ET'ers believe that true justice is frying someone completely ... that is to say for ever. Talking about deep fried!
The Annihilators believe that the wicked and unbelieving are just so much excess putrid baggage, extra fat that the whole creation is better off without.
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