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This passage cannot be taken out of context, no matter how you study it , it certainly is not talking about spiritual death, the verses quoted are actually talking about physical things, as in thorns,thistles,plants,fields and dust from the earth, and these physical things that ultimately result in us returning to the ground from which we were formed is answered in verse 17 , because of you.
Let me reiterate to you again i believe man died spiritually as God said he would through disobedience.
Off out to jam with my brother in law.
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Its pointless pcamps ...
pcamps, Ironmaw,
Do you really think that I was going to violate Biblical hermeneutics and rip out out of context?
Me, of all people who screams that charge relentlessly against you folks?
Do you not think I was oblivious to this verse?
Why would I remove "dust" from its Biblical context?
Why would I remove "thorn and thistles" from its Biblical context?
Why would I remove "sorrow, pain, labor" from its Biblical context?
What I am about to show you here, is the real issue at the most literal form of the Biblical text, and what you are imposing is not only contradictory to the entire premise of the kingdom, but way off base and founded on presuppositions. You do this before you even lay your eyes onto the text. The issue with most of people of the faith, is that they cannot take the scriptures for what it says...literally. THose who have been following me, or simply that love to debate with me, will begin to see, that what I present to all of you in time, will be the most consistent out of any paradigm, including Full Preterism. I have been here long enough that some of you may disagree with me, but like me, and we have good conversations and we listen to each other with conviction, but sometimes just disagree. But there are others, that don't like me. That's fine too.
What is the foundational truth? Christ redeemed only those who put their faith in Him. With this premise, we can all contend with each other respectively....those that disagree with this premise, as in UR, and you do, don't sidestep it...you believe Christ saved everybody. He didn't. He saved everyone that puts their faith in Him. That is the kosmos.
I will start with one thought, the most simplest and, most literal interpretation of this passage, and then I will provide the exegesis.
It will be short and sweet.
This passage in Genesis chapter 3 verse 16-19 is about one thing.
Spiritual death. Before the fall, Adam had life, from the tree of life.
Eternal, spiritual communion and covenant with God. Once he sinned, he died spiritually, separated from God, (now read closely) to the dust he would return without resurrection. Read that?
To the dust he would return without resurrection.
Now read more:
Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake…..
Isaiah 26:19 Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust…
1 Corinthians 15:47-49The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Paul’s use of Genesis creation language to contrast the natural, unregenerate, mortal man with the heavenly Man, Jesus, is obvious. The “image of the heavenly” they were to bear was the image of Christ they were all being changed into, from Old Covenant glory to New Covenant glory, as each one turned to the Lord (2 Corinthians 3:14-18). It was a covenantal, not a physical, bodily transformation, or resurrection. A thorough study of 1 Corinthians 15 in its context, and with appreciation of the Old Testament prophetic texts from which Paul is quoting, will prove this. But here, it is simply my purpose to show that under the old covenant, “the dust” was their natural, mortal, corruptible condition. This is why David spoke of the grave as a place of virtual annihilation, without even an awareness of God.
In an unregenerate state, there was no consciousness after physical death:
Psalm 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
But even while physically living, he acknowledged that he was dwelling in the dust of the earth, awaiting resurrection:
Psalm 44:24-26Why do You hide Your face, And forget our affliction and our oppression? 25 For our soul is bowed down to the dust; Our body clings to the ground. 26 Arise for our help, and redeem us for Your mercies' sake.
Psalm 119:25 My soul clings to the dust; Revive me according to Your word.
In the first century, Paul invited physically living people to rise from the dead:
Ephesians 5:14Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light."
In so doing, he was quoting from two contexts in Isaiah, both speaking of resurrection, and both in their larger contexts equating resurrection with salvation and the forgiveness of sins:
Isaiah 26:19Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Shall we approach thorn and thistles, or would you like to mull this one over and talk about it? Keep in mind next time, the physical is NOT the natural.
Of cause the physical man and the natural man has you rightly pointed out are 2 different things.
And you still have not said anything to change the fact that reason we die spiritually is also the reason die physically. Everything began to wither the moment Adam fell spiritually, including the natural and physical man,
Why does a man die physically according to you, if not for sin ?
And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.Gen 2:7
Wow ... that pretty much sums up my thought about what you wrote above. Just, wow ...
Cool.
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I'm going to cut to the chase here ...
ok
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Do you believe that if Jesus had not been crucified , would he have ever died a physical death?
Yes, He was a man. Hense, He grew older.
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Also, "the law of love? is not scriptural. If it is, could you please provide the scripture that refers to "the law of love".
And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
"This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
Any questions?
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And one more question, so do you believe that those people who never heard the gospel and therefore never believed in Jesus but lived by this "law of love" you are talking about go to heaven or hell?
They are allowed into the Kingdom based upon God's judgment. Heaven and hell are but concepts. You are either ONE with the Father through His Son, or you are not. Either Life, or death. Either Light or darkness.
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Oh and by the way, science cant prove that God even exists or that he created the universe or that Jesus ever did miracles and was resurrected from the dead or many other things that Christianity teaches to be true, like the idea that sin is even a reality.
And? Ever heard of faith?
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Ever heard of amorality? Can you prove to an amoralist that sin is really sin? How can you prove that there is sin if you cannot prove there is a god to sin again to begin with?
Sure, it is called morals..most humans live by them, which is the law of love.
HotinAZ said late last night to me about me "thinking i had won something" in the debate, seriously what is there to gain ?.
Sciota is very wise and prudent in what he believes , HotinAZ doesn't know what he believes (changed his mind twice on this thread alone), and Richard is sold out to Calvinism . I wish their hearts were open to the truth of UR and thought for it hand tooth like they do with the 3 different teachings of men they subscibe to.
What makes me laugh is how the stalwarts of the doctrines of ET and Annihilation think UR is all about Kumbaya, which is so far from the truth it's unreal they also think we ended up in a state of UR kumbayaness through disobedience, many have shared our testimonies on here how God made known to us the truth of UR. I certainly do not believe UR is an easy ride, i believe fully in whom the Lord loveth He chastiseth, i would be interested to know from ET'ers and Annihilators if they are ever chastised of the Lord. Or is it hard to be humble when your perfect in everyway(including doctrine and there's nothing you can be taught). I'm still learning by the Grace of God.
Chastisement? Really? Are you kidding me? You have no earthly idea what I have been through in my life, so do not try to think you do. I have been tried, tested and proven in the worst possible ways.
I know what I believe,,,it is you who cannot fathom the Truth, for it is FAR from you. You believe in a lie, so you can justify what exactly? Your sin, perhaps? My seeking has taken many, many years to get where I am. You, parked at one little doctrine you think is off the mainstream, and now you think you have found some sort of little treasure. It is a fools gold, not the real deal.
Chastisement? Really? Are you kidding me? You have no earthly idea what I have been through in my life, so do not try to think you do. I have been tried, tested and proven in the worst possible ways.
I know what I believe,,,it is you who cannot fathom the Truth, for it is FAR from you. You believe in a lie, so you can justify what exactly? Your sin, perhaps? My seeking has taken many, many years to get where I am. You, parked at one little doctrine you think is off the mainstream, and now you think you have found some sort of little treasure. It is a fools gold, not the real deal.
Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger; for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God. - James 1:19-20
Chastisement? Really? Are you kidding me? You have no earthly idea what I have been through in my life, so do not try to think you do. I have been tried, tested and proven in the worst possible ways.
I know what I believe,,,it is you who cannot fathom the Truth, for it is FAR from you. You believe in a lie, so you can justify what exactly? Your sin, perhaps? My seeking has taken many, many years to get where I am. You, parked at one little doctrine you think is off the mainstream, and now you think you have found some sort of little treasure. It is a fools gold, not the real deal.
HotinAZ you are so funny, it's as if you are throwing some kind of gauntlet down to see who is more spiritual, let me tell you i found nothing it found me The only reason i am debating you is in the hope that by the scriptures you can see who He is (God is love) and that is where all the issues of God proceed from . Him seeking me and revealing Himself to me by nature and character is why i am where i am today,and as for your doctrine snipe , i couldn't care less about any doctrine unless it has the sweet aroma of who He is all over it, the only doctrine we should ever concern ourselves with is the one we should becoming , and that is a revelation of His great heart of love.
Maybe you don't understand that chastisement of God is for our good and done in love and not has a punishment to hurt us , that you can't see that He is willing and able to save all, because if he's going to chastise you, surely those dirty rotten sinners who refuse to believe need annihilated.My brother in law and myself have this in common, we were chastised sorely by our Fathers,his mother beat him too. My brother in law is bitter,resentful,unforgiving and hateful towards his parents,i love mine and know my Dad was doing what he thought was right.I see all things from my heavenly Fathers hand to be in love , yes even his wrath and anger, because i know he has my interest at heart.
BIblically, there is no answer. It doesn't address the reason for physical death...only spiritual. Biologically, there is.
This does not prove your case.
Sciotamick i am sure much of what you and i believe is poles apart , but i respect your indepth knowledge in what you believe(whether it be true or not). I would also say you are an intelligent person , so i cannot understand why you would not see that through man falling spiritually it effected his whole being.Maybe it's because you are sold out to Preterism it want allow you to see it, truth does not revolve around Preterism nor Universalism , He is the Truth. This why i refuse to call myself a universalist, because the moment i do i am declaring this is it,there's nothing else to know and i am no longer open to what God wants to be made known. Much of what i believe as occured over the 26 years i have believed and not since i have accepted the truth of UR,a lot of what i have believed through those 26 years i no longer do, much of it before i accepted the truth of UR.
...and a good morning to you mercy......I appologize for it taking so long to get to your post.]
[quote=mercy]I read the link and I am still studying. Extremely interesting and I have a couple of points that may turn into questions.[/quote]
...awesome (that you read the link, and find it so interesting...let's talk..shall we...? Please bear with me mercy, so together we will uncover some mysteries of God's Word...
Let me begin by first quoting Isaiah 66:22-24, and then give Scripture that supports this passage...then I will proceed to explain...
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Originally Posted by mercy
Isaiah 66:22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. 24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
Isaiah 56:5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial, And a name better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.
Isaiah 61:8 For I, the LORD, love justice, I hate robbery in the burnt offering; And I will faithfully give them their recompense And make an everlasting covenant with them.
Isaiah 61:9 Then their offspring will be known among the nations, And their descendants in the midst of the peoples. All who see them will recognize them Because they are the offspring whom the LORD has blessed.
************
Isaiah 65:15"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
Isaiah 65:17"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
For as the new heavens and the new earth shall remain before me - They shall not pass away and be succeeded by others. The idea is, that the state of things here described would be permanent and abiding. So shall your seed and your name remain.
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Isaiah 65:22 "They will not build and another inhabit, They will not plant and another eat; For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people, And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
Isaiah 65:23 "They will not labor in vain, Or bear children for calamity; For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD, And their descendants with them.
John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Hebrews 12:26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN."
Hebrews 12:27 This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
1 Peter 1:4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Peter 3:13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
Revelation 21:1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
This prophecy refers to all those judgments which the wrath of God, according to the word of God, will bring upon provoking sinners, that live in contempt of God and are devoted to the world and the flesh: They shall be consumed together. From the happiness of heaven we find excluded all idolaters, and whosoever worketh abomination, Rev. 21:27; 22:15. In the day of vengeance secret wickedness will be brought to light and brought to the account; for (v. 18), I know their works and their thoughts. God knows both what men do and from what principle and with what design they do it; and therefore is fit to judge the world, because he can judge the secrets of men, Rom. 2:16.
He will appear to the comfort and joy of all that are faithful to him in the setting up of his kingdom in this world, the kingdom of grace, the earnest and first-fruits of the kingdom of glory. The time shall come that he will gather all nations and tongues to himself, that they may come and see his glory as it shines in the face of Jesus Christ, v. 18. This was fulfilled when all nations were to be discipled and the gift of tongues was bestowed in order thereunto. The church had been confined to one nation and in one tongue only God was worshipped; but in the days of the Messiah the partition-wall should be taken down, and those that had been strangers [the converted, believing Gentiles that are "grafted" in, considered "spiritual Jews"] to God should be brought acquainted with him and should see his glory in the gospel, as the Jews had seen it in the sanctuary. As to this, it is here promised...
...that some of the Jewish nation should, by the grace of God, be distinguished from the rest, and marked for salvation: I will not only set up a gathering ensign among them, to which the Gentiles shall seek (as is promised, ch. 11:12), but there shall be those among them on whom I will set a differencing sign; for so the word signifies. Though they are a corrupt degenerate nation, yet God will set apart a remnant of them, that shall be devoted to him and employed for him, and a mark shall be set upon them, with such certainty will God own them, Eze. 9:4. The servants of God shall be sealed in their foreheads, Rev. 7:3. The Lord knows those that are his. Christ's sheep are marked...
...that those who are themselves distinguished thus by the grace of God shall be commissioned to invite others to come and take the benefit of that grace. They shall be sent to the nations to carry the gospel among them, and preach it to every creature. Note, Those who themselves have escaped the wrath to come should do all they can to snatch others also out of the burning/annihilating. God chooses to send those on his errands that can deliver their message feelingly and experimentally, and warn people of their danger by sin as those who have themselves narrowly escaped the danger.
...and now, as I did for Isaiah 66:22 above, I will do for Mark 9:47, and then separately, verse 48...
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Originally Posted by mercy
Mark 9: 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell...
Matthew 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matthew 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matthew 18:9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell
Those who belong to Christ, may sometimes be reduced to such straits as to be glad of a cup of cold water. The relieving of Christ's poor in their distresses, is a good deed...He accepts it, and will reward it. What kindness is done to Christ's poor, must be done for them for His own sake, and because they belong to Him.
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Originally Posted by mercy
...48where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
Isaiah 66:24 "Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."
Matthew 3:12 "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
The flesh must be mortified, that we may enter into life (v. 43, 45), into the kingdom of God, v. 47. By abandoning sin, we may, for the present, feel as if we were wounded (it may seem like a force put upon ourselves, and may create uneasiness), yet it is for life...they [those who have mortified their "fleshly desires"] will give for their lives...it is for a Kingdom!!!, the Kingdom of God!!!, which we cannot otherwise obtain; these "wounds" will be the marks of the Lord Jesus...scars of honor (what is meant by crucifying our flesh) in His Kingdom.
The danger of not doing this is this...that either sin must die, or we must die. If we are ruled by sin, we shall inevitably be ruined by it; if we must! keep our two hands [out of love more for them (as we would love our mother or father or our children more), than following God], and two eyes, and two feet, we must with them be cast into hell.
Our Savior often pressed our duty upon us, from the consideration of the torments of hell, which we run ourselves into if we continue in sin. With an emphasis of terror are these words repeated three times here, "...Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched!..." These words are quoted from Isa. 66:24. The worm that dieth not; which will cleave to the damned soul as the worms do to the dead body, and prey upon it, and never leave it until it is devoured...annihilated...gone.
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Originally Posted by mercy
Thank you Lord for your precious Word.
Amen.
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Originally Posted by mercy
The Hebrew word for "mankind" is
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Originally Posted by mercy
ba·sar.", which means "flesh".
So would this be an ongoing event of the believers seeing the " dead bodies"? Example; we know that those who are unbelievers are "dead" to Christ. Especially since we know the "flesh" is seeing them. If we have our new resurrected bodies in the time of the new heavens and the new earth, they will not be "flesh", they will be "spirit".
So is Isaiah verse 22, just God's declaration of the new? And the events of the "flesh" ongoing until the event of God's declaration takes place.
Yes, I believe so.
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Originally Posted by mercy
I am hoping you can understand what I am asking.
Also, Mark 9, footnotes back to Isaiah 66:24. maybe I am missing scripture to confirm Isaiah 66:22-24 event(s). May this be speaking of two events. One, the declaration of God at the time of the New heavens and earth, then the second event ongoing in the flesh until the believer's resurrection.
For there is supporting scripture of the believer seeing the downfall of our enemies while in the flesh and we do see the unbeliever in death without Christ.
Thank you so much for this post and God Bless you Verna,
Mercy
I hope I have helped you in your understanding of these passages mercy...and I believe you understand them correctly.
God Bless you too mercy...abundantly!!!
In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
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...I appologize for it taking so long to get to your post.]
the link, and find it so interesting...let's talk..shall we...? Please bear with me mercy, so together we will uncover some mysteries of God's Word... 