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What i believe is more like God gives us wings and teaches us to fly.
Christ is the great physician, and he will successfully heal all people of the sickness of sin and unbelief.
He will not fail, he will successfully save and renew all people and all things.
Umm, ok.
God gave you a body, but He created your spirit.
God gave you His Word, in hopes you would come to Him.
Sadly, not many did...
God gives us His Son, to heal our brokeness. His hope, and His desire, is that all men everywhere would come to Him.
Does this mean they will? What does the Word say, for the answer is ALSO found there.
Nope.
Therefore they refused healing. They refused God. They refused His Son. They refused His Law. They refused His Life. They refused His Sovereignty.
Therefore, they are deluded,,,and dead. They will never see Life. They will never be healed. They will never see the Father. They are not heirs. They are not sons. They are nothing but beasts, destined to destruction along with their father, the devil.
Their destructon will be eternal in duration. They will never be released, nor brought back for 'another chance'. Your belief is wrong,,,and dead wrong at that.
This is very revealing. I believe you are seeing things here that most of Christendom are not seeing. This is sooooo close to the truth. That is until we get to the word "However". You have beatifully described how a person's "guilt of sin" or wrong doing can "humble" (and keep them humble)a person in this life. But you have meshed this with the tradition of men.
Believe me, I am not attacking you here. It is obvious that you do not look at the sufferings of men to be so "cut and dry" as some portray. When you say...
"His glory will make them acutely aware of all that guilt and it will be more than they can bear. The weight of that guilt will literally crush the life out of them"
...It is clear that "traditional thought" has caused you to come to this conclusion. As said before, you beautifully described that the a person can be "effectively changed" by "realizing you were truly forgiven". This I believe to be true. What I dont understand, is why can't a person see that that this whole process that you descibed is God's way of making them "acutely aware" of their guilt for the sole purpose to "effect a change in us that frees us from the burden of guilt and condemnation". It is so man's eyes can be opened to "see himself", so as to deny himself (die daily). Can you see where I am going with this?
The process that God is using to "effect a change in us" is the process of Calvary's cross. That is the fullest revelation of God's love, and we have this life and this life only, to accept or reject that. God's glory making people acutely aware of their guilt is not an overt act by God. It is part of the intrinsic nature of sin in the presence of God. God understand's that the time is coming when he will return to Earth in all His glory, and if we are not free of guilt, through acceptance of Calvary's gift, then we won't make it, and there is nothing that God can do about that. Just like He cannot make a square triangle, or force someone to love Him. That is why God reveals His truth to us bit by bit, in doses that we can absorb, and the more we open our hearts to Him the more of Himself He can reveal to us. God cannot effect any real change within us if we don't allow Him to do so. that is the nature of freewill, which is paramount to understanding God's love for us. If freewill does not exist than neither does love. God is love. And, love is complete other-centeredness. God showed us at Calvary just how self-sacrificng His love is, yet there are those out there that want to distort the very character of God and portray His love as not self-sacrificing enough to allow you to make an ultimate decision if it is counter to His will. Anyone holding on to the notion of God trampling on the will of others, is trampling on the very image of God's self-sacrificing love. If God could have just forced people to love Him, then Calvary would have been meaningless. Saying that there will be those that are lost, is not a declaration of Christ's love not being strong enough or willing enough to save them, it is simply a statement that there are those who refuse to be saved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm
You are separating the two, while we are stating that it is one of the "processes" that reconciles a person to God. I think you are sticking to tradition on these thoughts because you bring up man's "choice" (freewill?). It is clear that you don't believe that God will "force" Himself on anyone, but is it not His very ways that manipulate or influence (force as you will) us to His will? By saying that, what I mean, what is the differnce of the word "force" and your statement of "effecting a change" in us??
The difference can be understood by the scripture which states "behold, I stand at the door and knock", notice that it doesn't ever state that He will only knock for five minutes and then kick the door down. If He were to ever kick the door down, we would be stripped of freewill, however, we are free to open the door and invite Him in, and once He is in, then He can effect the change we so desperately need. Notice that it is not up to the person, to get Him to the door. God knocks on the door to every human heart, in some way. Some people respond to a light tap while others He may have to beat on the door or even pull out a megahorn while knocking, but He never kicks the door down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm
We do not see things so differently. Scripture states that God can blind, harden, deceive, and manipulate man, against his will. So how is it that man can have a "freewill" then. It is true as one has already said, "man does not LET God do anything". God does His own will, no mater what. You have effectively described a person that can be so riddled with guilt, that he/she thinks they dont even 'deserve' forgiveness of salvation (the worst sinner on earth, 1Tim 1:15), but yeilds to it, because God allowed it to be the ONLY choice to make. It is true as you say, man can be destroyed by his own guilt.
There is even more "deeper truths" in you words that I dont think you see, but I hope you do.
Take care and God bless
Joe
First off, God cannot lie. Scripture makes that clear, and it is Satan who is the master deceiver, not God. God never hardens hearts against the will of man. Just like I have stated that God cannot effect change(have the door opened, and be ushered inside) in an unwilling heart, God can not be left outside against the will of man. You see, when scripture talks about God hardening the hearts of men, it is not talking about an overt act by God as if He set out to harden those hearts. Christ's presence amongst the pharisee stirred hatred inside of them, not because that was Christ's intent, but because of the depth of their selfishness and pride, whenever they witnessed Christ's goodness, their hearts were hardened through their own willful pride. Same with Pharaoh, God hardened Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh's selfish pride was willing to be hardened against God. It was not because God forced a feeling in Pharaoh, contrary to what Pharaoh willfully desired.
This paper is a prime example of twisting the truth to make it fit in the UR view....it is a great example of eisegesis. Your appeal to the creeds is expected....and most of them were either excommunicated or renounced their beliefs, such as Jerome. This paper and all of its contnets was refuted here at City Data on numerous occasions...but here is one started by Mike555:
It all boils down to this HotinAZ.....God created a people for Himself....those in Adam, from out of the world. You and I both see this, but many do not. Therefore they impose reconciliation to everyone regardless of belief, when in fact it was only dealing with those in whom He created.
Israel.
We enjoy the benefits of being an Israelite, because we believe in Christ, therefore, we are reconciled.
Dabbled in UR, as if it were witch craft and not a profession of hope and love for all people.
If you feel blessed by the everlasting death of most of humanity, you are missing the whole point of the work of Christ on the cross.
Christ prayed, "father forgive them".
You pray, "father never forgive them" ....
In UR their is not HOPE for all people, their is a false certainty for all people. Those who believe, in ED truly have a hope for all, but a knowledge that all won't make it. Of those who are alive, that we come in contact with, we don't know if they will make it or not, but we hope they will and love them as Christ loved them, completely. He did pray "father forgive them" and they are all forgiven, every one of them. Forgiveness is the free gift of Calvary, but like any gift, it doesn't have to be accepted. Gifts can be refused or simply thrown in the trash. If you refuse to accept forgiveness, then you choose to hold onto guilt, and guilt in the presence of the fulness of God's goodness, will crush the life out of you. That is what happened to the two drunkards who stumbled into the Most Holy Place. Standing in the presence of God they were acutely aware of their sin and the guilt of that crushed the life out of them. God did not kill them, their sin and the guilt they carried killed them. Same with those at the the throne of judgement, God will not kill those who reject His gift of forgiveness, sin and the guilt of it will kill them. What was left in the Most Holy Place after the life was crushed out of those two men? 2 corpses, that had to be dragged out and burned. Well, after the final judgement, God intends to make this earth new, and what would be the best means for clearing out all the corpses that will be present? Fire, not to kill and torment (that was done by sin/guilt), but to cleanse the Earth and physically rid it of the lifeless corpses.
The process that God is using to "effect a change in us" is the process of Calvary's cross. That is the fullest revelation of God's love, and we have this life and this life only, to accept or reject that. God's glory making people acutely aware of their guilt is not an overt act by God. It is part of the intrinsic nature of sin in the presence of God. God understand's that the time is coming when he will return to Earth in all His glory, and if we are not free of guilt, through acceptance of Calvary's gift, then we won't make it, and there is nothing that God can do about that. Just like He cannot make a square triangle, or force someone to love Him. That is why God reveals His truth to us bit by bit, in doses that we can absorb, and the more we open our hearts to Him the more of Himself He can reveal to us. God cannot effect any real change within us if we don't allow Him to do so. that is the nature of freewill, which is paramount to understanding God's love for us. If freewill does not exist than neither does love. God is love. And, love is complete other-centeredness. God showed us at Calvary just how self-sacrificng His love is, yet there are those out there that want to distort the very character of God and portray His love as not self-sacrificing enough to allow you to make an ultimate decision if it is counter to His will. Anyone holding on to the notion of God trampling on the will of others, is trampling on the very image of God's self-sacrificing love. If God could have just forced people to love Him, then Calvary would have been meaningless. Saying that there will be those that are lost, is not a declaration of Christ's love not being strong enough or willing enough to save them, it is simply a statement that there are those who refuse to be saved.
The difference can be understood by the scripture which states "behold, I stand at the door and knock", notice that it doesn't ever state that He will only knock for five minutes and then kick the door down. If He were to ever kick the door down, we would be stripped of freewill, however, we are free to open the door and invite Him in, and once He is in, then He can effect the change we so desperately need. Notice that it is not up to the person, to get Him to the door. God knocks on the door to every human heart, in some way. Some people respond to a light tap while others He may have to beat on the door or even pull out a megahorn while knocking, but He never kicks the door down.
First off, God cannot lie. Scripture makes that clear, and it is Satan who is the master deceiver, not God. God never hardens hearts against the will of man. Just like I have stated that God cannot effect change(have the door opened, and be ushered inside) in an unwilling heart, God can not be left outside against the will of man. You see, when scripture talks about God hardening the hearts of men, it is not talking about an overt act by God as if He set out to harden those hearts. Christ's presence amongst the pharisee stirred hatred inside of them, not because that was Christ's intent, but because of the depth of their selfishness and pride, whenever they witnessed Christ's goodness, their hearts were hardened through their own willful pride. Same with Pharaoh, God hardened Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh's selfish pride was willing to be hardened against God. It was not because God forced a feeling in Pharaoh, contrary to what Pharaoh willfully desired.
Our salvation has nothing to do with our choices or our efforts. It i s completely about God and his decision to show mercy. He is the vessel makes, he is the one who make us vessels of mercy, or otherwise vessels of wrath. And he made us all vessels of wrath in the flesh, and he will make all vessels of mercy in the spirit. He is making everything new.
One day every being in the creation will bow and worship willingly before Christ and joyously confess him as lord to the glory of the father. One day every being will sing and celebrate his name, wether in heaven or on earth or under the earth or on and in the sea.
I know many of you Christians simply cant accept this and believe it to be true, just like unbelievers.
Yes I agree, because one day the only beings who exist are those that accepted God's gift of forgiveness (or never sinned in the first place)
Please, point me to a scripture that says those in the second resurrection will joyously confess Him as Lord. I know that every knee will bow (including Satan) and they will all declare that Christ is Lord and that God is just, but that will simply be a statement of fact that all will at that time realize. Doesn't mean that all will be happy about it. You ever see the look on a football players face when he sees the instant replay, that shows clearly his foot was out of bounds? When the ref comes back and upholds the ruling on the field, the player accepts the ruling and knows that it is fair and just but doesn't necessarily like what that results in, which is his team not getting the touchdown.
Our salvation has nothing to do with our choices or our efforts. It i s completely about God and his decision to show mercy. He is the vessel makes, he is the one who make us vessels of mercy, or otherwise vessels of wrath. And he made us all vessels of wrath in the flesh, and he will make all vessels of mercy in the spirit. He is making everything new.
Whoever said anything about us choosing mercy? You are right, the cross was not our choice in that, it was not up to us whether the cross would happen, but it is up to us whether or not we want to accept the fruits of the cross. God has shown mercy to every human to ever exist, and he did it at Calvary. We have no control over that. God has forgiven us all, and we can do nothing to change that, but we don't have to want that forgiveness or believe that it is ours. Like I said forgiveness is God's free gift to us. If I were to get you a CD player for christmas, wrap it up and put it under the tree, you could do nothing to stop me, and that gift is yours to do with as you please. You can unwrap it, put in the disks I included and allow your life to be changed, or you could take the gift and throw it in the trash. you could not control my mercy in giving you the gift, but I (having self-sacrificing love for you) can not force you to keep the gift let alone use it. If I was selfish I could certainly tie you up and force you to use the Cd player and disks, but that would not be love.
Yes I agree, because one day the only beings who exist are those that accepted God's gift of forgiveness (or never sinned in the first place)
Please, point me to a scripture that says those in the second resurrection will joyously confess Him as Lord. I know that every knee will bow (including Satan) and they will all declare that Christ is Lord and that God is just, but that will simply be a statement of fact that all will at that time realize. Doesn't mean that all will be happy about it. You ever see the look on a football players face when he sees the instant replay, that shows clearly his foot was out of bounds? When the ref comes back and upholds the ruling on the field, the player accepts the ruling and knows that it is fair and just but doesn't necessarily like what that results in, which is his team not getting the touchdown.
Thankfully Half Nelson unlike Football, Salvation is not a game, and with the Spirit of Christ dwelling in our hearts we are all routing for the same people(the world),and multitudes upon multitudes will roar in celebration to the king of kings and lord of lords as every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord .
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