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...and still assuming and concluding the same 'ol way you always do Mystic...?
I did answer it. You just didn't read it.
I read it . . . you didn't answer and switched to murder . . . when he was asking about Jesus' admonition to "love your enemies" in contradiction to the OT hate supposedly expressed by God for His enemies (which you have frequently quoted to support the hatred of sinners.)
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...and even when I do avoid questions and/or replies posted by UR's (which is most of the time)...that truly is something that shouldn't come as a shock to anyone...that is nothing new Mystic...rarely do I ever even read them when they are replies of the UR ilk . I just really don't stop to read most of them.
It is neither a shock nor news . . . It has been quite obvious. It is part of the protection and immunization of the stupid "precepts and doctrines of men" that religions promote . . . ignore anyone who does not spout the same beliefs you have been told to praise and accept by faith.
The "co-savior" traditional fundamentalist theologian, Alexander Wilford Hall, does nothing but provide eloquent language in order to put forth a myriad of logical fallacies and rely on erroneous translations in order to form his weak attempt at a rebuttal of the teachings of the restitution of all things.
All of his arguments are dismantled and do thus collapse under close scrutiny.
Here is a writing which blows all of his arguments out of the water ...
Restitution of All Things (Index) (http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm - broken link)
For anyone who may be interested ...
Rodgertutt started a scholar/creed frenzy! We can go all day long here....
Sciotamick i wish you'd give me a little more respect than that , has i have explained quite often of late on this forum, much of what i believe i have believed pre UR and my question to her has nothing to do with UR , but to be quite frank much to do with the hate that is spewed out and passed off as being loving the love of God.
And i'm sorry but your explaination does not wash, Matthew 5:43,44 is speaking directly to all of us,"you have heard it said love your neighbor and hate your enemy,but i say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you". And the person i directed the question to, wants us to believe that God hates the enemies that he beseeches us to love, it's an absolute distortion of the truth and the heart of God, and i want to know what her explaination is of "but i say unto you".
It's also a reflection of how off balance the message of christendom(i'm being extremely polite in calling it christendom) is, and for arguments sake even if ET or annihilation are true,it's still way off balance with its message. It majors heavily on the problem with the world , rather than the answer,it goes to great lengths to magnify the judgements of God rather than the answer,and Sciota i know you are intelligent enough to see this...... And i will say if i am or going to be off balance regarding anything concerning the things of God, i am more than happy to pitch my tent off balance on his great heart of love, than the message of christendom that lauds sin,the condition of a man's heart and what it perceives has judgement to come, over the riches of his grace, his mercy that endures for ever,his love that is beyond comprehension and his long suffering that will's none to perish.
How right Jesus was when he said "You hypocrits you have neglected the more important matters of the law,justice,mercy and faithfullness,you blind guides, you strain out at gnat and swallow a camel.
As well.....in Matt 5:43, Christ is correcting the Jews and upholding the law that was given in Lev 19:18...the corrupt teachers of the law and theocracy added, and hate thine enemy.
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But I say unto you, Love your enemies--The word here used denotes moral love, as distinguished from the other word, which expresses personal affection. Usually, the former denotes "complacency in the character" of the person loved; but here it denotes the benignant, compassionate outgoings of desire for another's good.
bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you--The best commentary on these matchless counsels is the bright example of Him who gave them. (See 1 Pe 2:21-24 ; and compare Rom 12:20, 21 1 Cr 4:12 1 Pe 3:9 ). But though such precepts were never before expressed--perhaps not even conceived--with such breadth, precision, and sharpness as here, our Lord is here only the incomparable Interpreter of the law in force from the beginning; and this is the only satisfactory view of the entire strain of this discourse. - Brown
This debate over free will and God's will suffers from the same thing most such debates do . . . extreme positions. God's will is that we should have free will . . . but that free will does not have applicability or power over everything in our physical reality. We cannot eliminate gravity or exceed the speed of light. We cannot avoid breathing, drinking, eating, etc. Why would we think it would be any different in the spiritual (consciousness) aspects of our reality. Some things are simply not subject to our free will . . . like the really important things we TRULY believe in our heart of hearts. When we truly believe something important to us . . . there is no way for our free will to cause us to NOT believe it . . . and vice versa.There really is no conflict. Some things are set by God's will and cannot be changed (physical and spiritual) and others are subject to our free will. If you doubt this . . . try to believe the opposite of something you truly believe. The best you will be able to muster is lip service.
"Therefore, do your part; repent, and be converted, because Christ is ready to do His, in turning you from your iniquiti
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Originally Posted by joeallcomm
HalfNelson.....Believe me, I know your position in this, because I once believed the same as you. All throughout the bible we read of the total failure of Man when left to himself. But those who God touched FIRST, are the ones who did righteousness, arent they. Name one person in scripture that chose God or to do God's will all by himself. You will ONLY find that God has ALWAYS chose, manipulated curcumstances, or drew them FIRST. Given your position, I was hoping you would explain those verses on that thread. To date, noone in your position has (it is alot of scripture to explain away). I am sorry HalfNelson, but your theology just cannot stand when tested with scripture. If you are interested, the below thread is a debate (between me and Mike555) with basically the same issue, but this fellow believes in ET rather than ED.
You are certainly not confusing me. Truth is in scripture not in the wisdom of men. I know it seems to make no sense at all to you for man not to have a freewill. And you feel this way by what is taught to you by men and NOT by scripture. Any scripture that "seemingly" shows that man is free to make a choice MUST agree with ALL other scripture. Show me the scriptures that say man has a free will and I will explain the best I can (using scripture) that they do not. The above thread might have answers to your approach though.
God knows exactly what He is doing. His plan has been working perfectly all along. If God can BLIND a man, how pray tell can he then SEE? If He can make DEAF a man, how can he then UNDERSTAND? If God can cause a man to believe in a LIE, how then can that man know TRUTH? What you fail to understand is that God takes TOTAL credit for these things and others, and you lay blame upon man for it. We are NOT our own saviors, which is the logical conclusion of your theology.
You do see things a little deep then most though. I'll give you that.
Take care HN
Joe
Acts 3:17-26:
17And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
They must believe that times of refreshing will come from the presence of the Lord...
19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
...and that they will be the times of the restitution of all things...
21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
There is another life after this; those times will come from the presence of the Lord, from his glorious appearance on that Day, His coming at the end of time.
Behold, the Judge now stands before the door.
The presence of the Lord will introduce...
[1.] The restitution of all things (v. 21); the new heavens, and the new earth, which will be the product of the dissolution of all things (Rev. 21:1), which states: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. The renovation of the whole creation, which is that which it grieves after, as its present burden under the sin of man is that which it groans under. Some understand this as being a state in which we find ourselves on on this side of the end of time...but it is that end of all things which God has spoken of by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began; for this is that which Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of in Jude 14, which states: "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, 'Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousand of His saints.' "
The judgments which the prophets foretold were representative of that which the apostle calls the eternal judgment. This is clearly revealed in the New Testament, and all that receive the gospel have an expectation of it.
[2.] With this will come the times of refreshing (v. 19), of consolation to the Lord's people. All Christians, after the travails and toils of their present state, will look for a rest that remains for the people of God...and the prospect of this, will strengthen them even under their present sufferings...and will serve to carry them on in their service to God.
The refreshing that then comes from the presence of the Lord will continue eternally in the presence of the Lord.
He tells them what they must do...
(1.) They must repent, they must realize what they have done contrary to God's Word...and they must return to right thinking, admit to, and submit to, the convictions of it; they must begin anew.
Peter, who had himself denied Christ, repented, and he would have them do so as well.
(2.) They must be converted, they must turn from their sin, and direct both their faces and steps the opposite way to what they had been; they must return to the Lord their God, from whom they had revolted. It is not enough to repent of sin, but we must be converted from it, and not return to it again. They must not only exchange the profession of Judaism for that of Christianity, but the power and dominion of a carnal, worldly, sensual mind, for that of holy, heavenly, and divine principles and affections.
(3.) They must hear Christ: "Him shall you hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. Attend His dictates, receive His doctrine, submit to His government. Hear him with a divine faith, as prophets should be heard, that come with a divine commission. Him shall you hear, and to Him shall you subscribe with an implicit faith and obedience. Hear Him in all things; let His laws govern all your actions, and His counsels determine all your submissions. Whenever He has a mouth to speak, you must have an ear to hear. Whatever He saith to you, though ever so displeasing to flesh and blood, bid it welcome." Speak, Lord, for thy servant hears. A good reason is given here as to why we should be observant of, and obedient to, the word of Christ; for it is at our peril if we turn a deaf ear to his call and a stiff neck to his yoke (v. 23): Every soul that will not hear the Words of Christ, and be directed by what He says, shall be destroyed from among the people. The destruction of the city and nation, by war and famine, was threatened for slighting the prophets of the Old Testament; but the destruction of the soul, a spiritual and eternal destruction, is threatened for slighting Christ. Those that will not listen to, nor take heed in God's Word, our Saviour, can expect nothing short of falling into the hands of the destroyer.
He tells them what they might expect...
(1.) That they should have the pardon of their sins; this is always spoken of as the great privilege of all those that embrace the gospel (v. 19): Repent, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. This implies,
[1.] That the remission of sin is the blotting out of it , as a debt is crossed and blotted out when it is remitted. It intimates that when God forgives sin he remembers it no more against the sinner; it is forgotten, as that which is blotted out; all the bitter things written against the sinner (Job 13:26) are wiped out as it were with a sponge; it is the cancelling of a bond, the vacating of a judgment.
[2.] That we cannot expect our sins should be pardoned unless we repent of them, and turn from them to God. Though Christ has died to purchase the remission of sin, yet, that we may have the benefit of that purchase in the forgiveness of our sins, we must repent, and be converted: if no repentance, no remission.
[3.] Hopes of the pardon of sin upon repentance should be a powerful inducement to us to repent.Repent, that your sins may be blotted out: and that repentance flows from an apprehension of the mercy of God in Christ, and the hopes of pardon. This was the first and great argument, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
[4.] The most comfortable fruit of the forgiveness of our sins will be when the times of refreshing shall come; if our sins be forgiven us, we now have reason to rejoice!...but the comfort will be complete when the pardon shall be allowed in open court, and our justification published before angels and men..."...whom He has justified, them He glorifies", Rom. 8:30.As now we are the sons of God (1 Jn. 3:2). So...now we have our sins blotted out; but it does not yet appear what are the blessed fruits of it...not until the times of refreshing shall come. During these times of toil and conflict (doubts and fears within, troubles and dangers without) we cannot have that full satisfaction of our pardon, but when the refreshing times come, this is when all our tears will be wiped away.
That they should have the comfort of Christ's coming (v. 20, 21): "He shall send Jesus Christ, the same Jesus, the very same that before was preached unto you; for you must not expect another dispensation, another gospel, but the continuance and completion of this; you must not expect another like unto Jesus, as Moses bade you expect another like unto him; for, though the heavens must receive him till the times of the restitution of all things; yet, if you repent and be converted, you shall find no want of him; some way or other he shall be seen of you."
[1.] We must not expect Christ's personal presence with us in this world; for the heavens, which received him up and out of the sight of the disciples, must keep Him until the end of time. There...in His place just right Of God is where He will remain until..."the end of time"...or..."the accomplishment of all things" (so it may be read).
We must live by that faith in him which is the evidence of things not seen; because he must be believed on in the world, he must be received up into glory; He must reign until all be made subject to him, 1 Co. 15:25; Ps. 75:2.
[2.] Yet it is promised that he shall be sent to all that repent and are converted(v. 20): "He shall send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you by his disciples, both before and since his resurrection, and is, and will be, all in all to them." First, "You shall have His spiritual presence. He that is sent into the world shall be sent to you; you shall have the comfort of His being sent; He shall be sent among you in His gospel." Secondly, "He shall send Jesus Christ to destroy Jerusalem, and the nation of unbelieving Jews, that are enemies to Christ and Christianity, and to deliver his ministers and people from them, and give them peace in the profession of the gospel, and that shall be a time of refreshing, in which you shall share." Thirdly, "The sending of Christ to judge the world, at the end of time, will be a blessing to you; you shall then lift up your heads with joy, knowing that your redemption draws nigh."..."...for till then the heavens must receive him, (v. 21.) As God's counsels from eternity, so his predictions from the beginning of time, had a reference to the transactions of the last day, when the mystery of God shall be finished, as he had declared to his servants the prophets, Rev. 10:7. The institution of all things in the church had an eye to the restitution of all things at the end of time.
He tells them what ground they had to expect these things, if they were converted to Christ. Though they had denied him, and put him to death, yet they might hope to find favour through him, upon the account of their being Israelites. For,
(1.) As Israelites, they had the monopoly of the grace of the Old Testament; they were, above any other, God's favorite nation, and the favors God bestowed upon them were such as had a reference to the Messiah, and His kingdom: You are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant. A double privilege. [1.] They were the children, that is, the disciples, of the prophets, as children at school; not sons of the prophets, in the sense that we read of such in the Old Testament, from Samuel and downward, who were, or are, trained up to be endued with the spirit of prophecy; but you are of that people from among whom prophets were raised up, and to whom prophets were sent. It is spoken of as a great favour to Israel that God raised up of their sons for prophets, Amos 2:11. All the inspired writers, both of the Old and New Testament, were of the seed of Abraham; and it was their honour and advantage that unto them were committed the oracles of God, Rom. 3:2. Their government was constituted by prophecy, that is, by divine revelation; and by it their affairs were for many ages, managed. See Hos. 12:13.
By a prophet the Lord brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was He preserved. Those of the latter ages of the church, when prophecy had ceased, might yet be fitly called the children of the prophets, because they heard, though they did not know, the voices of the prophets, which were read in their synagogues every Sabbath day, ch. 13:27. Now this should quicken them to embrace Christ, and they might hope to be accepted of him; for their own prophets had foretold that this grace should be brought unto them at the revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:13), and therefore ought not to be neglected by them, nor should be denied to them. [2.] They were the children, that is, the heirs, of the covenant which God made with our Fathers, as children in the family. God's covenant was made with Abraham and his seed, and they were that seed with whom the covenant was made, and on whom the blessings of the covenant were entailed: "The promise of the Messiah was made to you, and therefore if you forsake not your own mercies, and do not put a bar in your own door, you may hope it shall be made good to you." That promise mentioned here, as the principal article of the covenant, In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed, though referring principally to Christ (Gal. 3:16), yet may include the church also, which is his body, all believers, that are the spiritual seed of Abraham. All the kindreds of the earth were blessed in having a church for Christ among them; and those that were the seed of Abraham according to the flesh stood fairest for this privilege. If all the kindreds of the earth were to be blessed in Christ, much more that kindred, his kinsmen according to the flesh. (2.) As Israelites, they had the first offer of the grace of the New Testament. Because they were the children of the prophets and the covenant, therefore to them the Redeemer was first sent, which was an encouragement to them to hope that if they did repent, and were converted, he should be yet further sent for their comfort (v. 20): He shall send Jesus Christ, for to you first he hath sent him, (v. 26). Unto you first, you Jews, though not to you only, God, having raised up his Son Jesus, appointed and authorized him to be a prince and a Savior, and, in confirmation of this, raised him from the dead, sent him to bless you, to make a tender of his blessing to you, especially that great blessing of turning every one of you from his iniquities; and therefore it concerns you to receive this blessing, and turn from your iniquities, and you may be encouraged to hope that you shall. [1.] We are told Christ had His mission: God raised up His Son Jesus, and sent Him. God raised Him up and filled him with his Spirit without measure, and then sent him; for to this end He raised him up, that he might be His commissioner to treat of peace. He sent Him to bear witness of the truth, sent Him to seek and save lost souls, sent Him against his enemies, to conquer them. Some refer the raising of Him up to the resurrection, which was the first step towards His exaltation; this was the renewing of his commission; and though, having raised Him up, He seemed presently to take Him from us, yet He did really send Him afresh to us in His gospel and Spirit. [2.] To whom He was sent: "Unto you first. You of the seed of Abraham, you that are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant, to you is the tender made of gospel grace." The personal ministry of Christ, was confined to the Jews; He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, and he forbade the disciples he then sent forth to go any further. After his resurrection, he was to be preached indeed to all nations, but they must begin at Jerusalem, Lu. 24:47.
On what mission he was sent: "He is sent to you first, to bless you; this is his primary errand, not to condemn you, as you deserve, but to justify you, if you will accept of the justification offered you, in the way wherein it is offered; but he that sends him first to bless you, if you refuse and reject that blessing, will send him to curse you with a curse," Mal. 4:6. Note, First, Christ's mission into the world was to bless us, to bring a blessing with him, for the Sun of righteousness rose with healing under his wings; and, when he left the world, he left a blessing behind him for he was parted from the disciples as he blessed them, Lu. 24:51. He sent his Spirit to be the great blessing, the blessing of blessings, Isa. 44:3. It is by Christ that God sends blessings to us, and through him only we can expect to receive them. Secondly, The great blessing wherewith Christ came to bless us was the turning of us away from our iniquities, the saving of us from our sins (Mt. 1:21), to turn us from sin, that we may be qualified to receive all other blessings. Sin is that to which naturally we cleave; the design of divine grace is to turn us from it...to turn us against it, that we may not only forsake it, but hate it. The gospel has a direct tendency to do this, not only as it requires us, every one of us, to turn from our iniquities, but as it promises us grace to enable us to do so.
"Therefore, do your part; repent, and be converted, because Christ is ready to do His, in turning you from your iniquities, and so blessing you."
God Bless you.
In Christ's love...and prayefully in His truth,
Verna.
As well.....in Matt 5:43, Christ is correcting the Jews and upholding the law that was given in Lev 19:18...the corrupt teachers of the law and theocracy added, and hate thine enemy.
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Well if the corrupt teachers of the law added and hate thine enemy, it certainly pulls the rug from under feet of one dear sisters ministry,because hating your enemy is littered throughout the OT, and how she loves quoting those verses at us and to us.
Sciota do you believe when Jesus said bless them that curse you, do good to them that spitefully use you,to love our enemies, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile , was for any other reason than that is how he is by nature ?. if you do i would suggest you check out Luke 6 :36, and in the previous verse he tells us the Most High is also king to the ungrateful and wicked too.So Jesus makes it absolutely clear why we are called to live by these sayings.
pcamps, He was only repeating what was already laid down in the law. The Jews forgot or had twisted it up so bad that it wasn't what it was to begin with. Christ is the "alpha" and the "omega"...unchanging from beginning to end. It was man, Jew, who changed. I will take a look and Luke 6....off to work now..I should have some time later.
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"Therefore, do your part; repent, and be converted, because Christ is ready to do His, in turning you from your iniquiti
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