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Yes, and there are many examples in OT where the Jews repented and turned back to God. They kept going back and forth between belief and unbelief. I guess what we are hearing is that God got bored every now and then and forced them to unbelief so he could kill some Jews. Would a loving God do that?
God wants us to worship Him out of our own free will. Yes, God draws us to himself and if we respond to His calling we are saved. Unfortunately many do not respond to the calling.
Yes, and there are many examples in OT where the Jews repented and turned back to God. They kept going back and forth between belief and unbelief. I guess what we are hearing is that God got bored every now and then and forced them to unbelief so he could kill some Jews. Would a loving God do that?
God wants us to worship Him out of our own free will. Yes, God draws us to himself and if we respond to His calling we are saved. Unfortunately many do not respond to the calling.
LOL...It is as Eusubius said...
Quote:
Watch Finn not answer me.
Boy...he called it didn't he. Heck...I didn't even have to say it.
I am not trying to be rude here Finn, but I see this time and time again with you. You are very good at starting a debate or jumping in the middle of one. But the more I read of your posts, the more I see, that when you get cornered (like you are now), you resort to ‘round-about’ antics with no answers.
Example being….I have repeatedly stated, in so many words, that….
“Without the Touch of God, we WILL always fail”
I will even list and bold/italics/underline them for you. I said it several times on this reply to you….
Quote:
Here: “…..you HAVE NOT found was one instance where someone chose NOT to reject Him, without God first GUIDING/DRAWING/TOUCHING/INFLUENCING his or her choice to do so.
Here: “……they… rejected Him, … ALWAYS… (apart from God).”
Here: “….And apart from God helping us, WE would choose the same thing.”
And here: “You have not found to date in the scriptures, someone who has ACCEPTED God apart from (that is "apart", mind you) Him leading themto do so.”
“…….You still havent came up with that "ONE" example I have asked for. If what you are stating is true Finn, then you must be able to find it, right??.....”
Again, you have found nothing new under the sun. It is true what you say….
"Yes, and there are many examples in OT where the Jews repented and turned back to God."
But that is NOT that answer to my challenge, and you know it. Like always, you cant answer the whole issue. You have supplied an answer to this….
“Give me an example of ONE of them that "DID" chose God”
But once again, you dodge the real challenge which was this….
“Give me an example of ONE of them that "DID" chose God….(WITHOUT GOD’s INFLUENCE).”
And we all know you never will….I will be awaiting your “round-about” reply again though.
Great posts - it is clear what the scripture is saying: God is in control of all things, even the unbelief/disobedience of Israel. All the scripture you have posted has made that clear, as does this verse:
Romans 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience (unbelief) so that he may have mercy on them all.
God binds people over to disobedience.
Finn is unable to accept this, because if he did, he would have to either acknowledge: 1. universal salvation is true, or 2. God chooses who is going to hell (Calvinism).
Yes, and there are many examples in OT where the Jews repented and turned back to God. They kept going back and forth between belief and unbelief. I guess what we are hearing is that God got bored every now and then and forced them to unbelief so he could kill some Jews. Would a loving God do that?
God doesn't get "bored."
Everything God allows and does is calculated to eventually bring about a more glorious consummation for everyone than if He had not allowed it as He fits everyone into His master plan in their own unique way, a way that will enable Him to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
Actually Finn, your scenario is an infinitely worse definition of a loving God than His using evil to achieve more glorious ends for everyone than if it had not temporarily existed.
A god who lets anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering. Would a loving God do that? NO WILL JESUS TORTURE BILLIONS FOREVER? http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
Because Jesus is the Creator and Sustainer of everyone it would be absurd to try to argue that it would not be Jesus Who would be torturing them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
God wants us to worship Him out of our own free will. Yes, God draws us to Himself and if we respond to His calling we are saved. Unfortunately many do not respond to the calling.
Since we always, without exception, respond in the direction of the strongest influence all of the time, there cannot be any such a thing a "free" will.
Here is a snippet from the conclusion of Martin Luther's De Servo Arbitrio ON THE ENSLAVED WILL also called THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL
"I consider that I have now abundantly satisfied the godly man, who wishes to believe the truth without making resistance, that
there can be no "Free-will"—in man,—in angel,—or in any creature!" The Bondage of the Will
And indeed, I believe that Luther proved it irrefutably in this lengthy diatribe.
The scriptures are clear that a person cannot repent of themselves. A carnal man who is not spiritually regenerated cannot perceive or receive or even comprehend the things of the spirit of God because they are spiritually discerned. To a carnal unregenerate person the things of the spirit of God seem foolish.
Repentance is a gift from God, just like faith is ... And the scriptures are clear about that.
Act 5:31
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.
Repentance is just as much a divine gift as is forgiveness of sins.
2 Timothy 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth
The reason why many Christians reject this scriptural truth is because of their own false pride and arrogance before God. They believe they are responsible for their own wise decision to repent and believe, and thus have earned the grace of God and salvation thereby.
If God does not give a person repentance, then they can and will never repent. When God does give repentance, then one can do nothing other than repent.
God in Christ will have compassion and give repentance to all he has made, and at that time all that he has made will worship him and confess and praise his name to the glory of the father.
Psalm 145:9-10 The LORD is good to everyone and has compassion for everything that he has made. Everything that you have made will give thanks to you, O LORD, and your faithful ones will praise you.
Matthew 5:45
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil
God made all things, and he is good to and has compassion all everyone, and everyone he has made, which is every person who ever lived including the angels, will one day give thanks to God for his grace in Christ our lord, even all those who never believed in this life. Though they were evil and unrepentant and ungrateful and unbelieving in this life, they will be given faith and repentance so that they believe and confess and give thanks to God and worship him and praise his name ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-27-2010 at 02:24 PM..
As Joe pointed out, in Deuteronomy God fortold that the Israelites would be disobedient, and then later on in the NT Paul tells us that it was actually God Himself who bound the Israelites over to disobedience, just as He binds all men to disobedience.
He does this so He can have mercy on all, but who believes it... not many
Yes, and there are many examples in OT where the Jews repented and turned back to God. They kept going back and forth between belief and unbelief. I guess what we are hearing is that God got bored every now and then and forced them to unbelief so he could kill some Jews. Would a loving God do that?
God wants us to worship Him out of our own free will. Yes, God draws us to himself and if we respond to His calling we are saved. Unfortunately many do not respond to the calling.
It comes down to one fundamental doctrine that is littered throughout both testaments that universalism has a very hard time in understanding. God's people were CREATED apart from the world for His service. We are saved for service. God created for Himself, via Adam, through Abraham by faith, exampled by Israel, in Christ, a peculiar people apart from those who choose disbelief. Adam sinned, forsook the COVENANT, and that COVENANT for His peculiar people, was death through Adam, DISANNULLED in Christ. The get-out-of-jail-FREE card is being baptized into that covenant. Being put to death with Him, and raised to life with Christ, and set apart for His service. UR forsakes the nature of salvation, and that it is covenantal.
God doesn't get "bored."
Everything God allows and does is calculated to eventually bring about a more glorious consummation for everyone than if He had not allowed it as He fits everyone into His master plan in their own unique way, a way that will enable Him to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
Actually Finn, your scenario is an infinitely worse definition of a loving God than His using evil to achieve more glorious ends for everyone than if it had not temporarily existed.
A god who lets anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering. Would a loving God do that? NO WILL JESUS TORTURE BILLIONS FOREVER? http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
Because Jesus is the Creator and Sustainer of everyone it would be absurd to try to argue that it would not be Jesus Who would be torturing them.
Since we always, without exception, respond in the direction of the strongest influence all of the time, there cannot be any such a thing a "free" will.
Here is a snippet from the conclusion of Martin Luther's De Servo Arbitrio ON THE ENSLAVED WILL also called THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL
"I consider that I have now abundantly satisfied the godly man, who wishes to believe the truth without making resistance, that
there can be no "Free-will"—in man,—in angel,—or in any creature!" The Bondage of the Will
And indeed, I believe that Luther proved it irrefutably in this lengthy diatribe.
I'm not a fan of Luther, but he did have some things right, as many out there do. Some. Thankfully, not all.
Finn is unable to accept this, because if he did, he would have to either acknowledge: 1. universal salvation is true, or 2. God chooses who is going to hell (Calvinism).
This is true. This is why I refered to what I call "back-burner" verses. Which are verses that people throw on the "back burner", because they dont understand them yet.
There is no shame in not knowing what these type of verses mean. I would rather admit I dont understand a verse, then to give "round-about" arguements because I do NOT understand them.
Case in point....I believe that Revelations is talking of future events, BUT.... verses that state things such as.....
"the time is at hand"
"shortly (Gk: quickly) come to pass"
"THIS generation shall not pass away, till"
...suggest otherwise. I am willing to change my "current" thought on Revelations, but I have laid such verses on the "back-burner" until God leads me to study the idea that Revelations was talking of the coming destruction of Jerusalem. So to this date I can ADMIT that I "don't know" which view is true. And I feel no shame to say so, because I truely TRUST that God will guide me according to His will.
I know NOW that, if I believe in the RIGHT thing, then it is God's Will that I believe RIGHTLY. I ALSO know that, if I believe in the WRONG thing, then it is STILL God's Will that I believe Wrongly (at this time).
Any denomination of Christianity can say the FIRST sentence above ^^^ , But, IMO, a Universalist is the ONLY person who can say, or would say, BOTH sentences.
I fought 'tooth and nail' against UR, untill I was led to study their "verses" that stumped me. I was just as "unable" to accept the truths of the verses, so i laid their verses on the back-burner, until God opened my eyes to them. And believe me, it was a "painful-joyous" journey to accept the truth of them.
There is no shame in not knowing what these type of verses mean. I would rather admit I dont understand a verse, then to give "round-about" arguements because I do NOT understand them.
So to this date I can ADMIT that I "don't know" which view is true. And I feel no shame to say so, because I truely TRUST that God will guide me according to His will.
Great post, Joe. Many people (Luther included) didn't know what Revelation meant and wanted to toss it out. It's foolish to think we can just take a casual look at Revelation (or any other book) and think we've got it figured out. To have all these people out there making money off of this stuff is just terrible. All the end-time books and movies and sermons..........
People have no true fear (respect) for who God is. They want something quick and easy (a prayer, a seat on the pew, or a teacher who believes as they do) and expect other blind men to tell them what's going on; men who've been passing the same fear and confusion on for thousands of years. They fear what organized religion says about the Bible and end up ignoring God's quiet spirit.
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Would a loving god do that?
