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People have added to, and taken away from the word, turned an age into eternity, reduced salvation to that of a few, and diminished His Will to nothing more than a weak wish.
Do you not know that the church has become the Harlot of Babylon; apostate, under the persuasion of false teachers?
Notice verse sixteen in Jeremiah, chapter 14:
"And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem."
As if the false preachers and teachers were not enough, those who listen to them will also be cast out, until they are resurrected in the Spirit of Truth.
All will not overcome in this life, but all will come before the throne of Grace in the Presence of the Lamb.
People have added to, and taken away from the word, turned an age into eternity, reduced salvation to that of a few, and diminished His Will to nothing more than a weak wish.
Exactly, they turn the will of God into an impossible "Pipe Dream" ...
"Silly God, why does he desire what he can never have?"
Doesn't he know he old wise saying, "You can wish in one hand and spit in the other, which one do you think will fill up faster?" ...
Doesn't he know that most Christians will not accept(and certainly do not pray for) his will/desire being done on earth as it is in heaven, and will not allow him to accomplish whatever he desires if it is left up to them?
Fortunately for the universe, God works all things according to the counsel of his own will, and not according to the counsel of the will of humans.
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Do you not know that the church has become the Harlot of Babylon; apostate, under the persuasion of false teachers?
Yes, i have noticed that ...
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Notice verse sixteen in Jeremiah, chapter 14:
"And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem."
As if the false preachers and teachers were not enough, those who listen to them will also be cast out, until they are resurrected in the Spirit of Truth.
All will not overcome in this life, but all will come before the throne of Grace in the Presence of the Lamb.
And those who have no good works shall suffer loss, but they shall be saved as passing through the fire ...
We want a foil like you non URs as a contrast to show up the difference between our theologies so people can choose what they think most glorifies God.
Which glorifies god? Justice or love, or justice and love.
I desire mercy, not sacrifice.
Zechariah 7:9 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Administer true justice--->>>>>show mercy and compassion to one another.
Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--->>>>>justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Romans 13:10. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
I Peter 4:8. Most important of all, continue to show deep love for each other, for love covers a multitude of sins.
Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
Galatians 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.
People have added to, and taken away from the word, turned an age into eternity, reduced salvation to that of a few, and diminished His Will to nothing more than a weak wish.
Do you not know that the church has become the Harlot of Babylon; apostate, under the persuasion of false teachers?
Notice verse sixteen in Jeremiah, chapter 14:
"And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem."
As if the false preachers and teachers were not enough, those who listen to them will also be cast out, until they are resurrected in the Spirit of Truth.
All will not overcome in this life, but all will come before the throne of Grace in the Presence of the Lamb.
Halfnelson…..Please forgive me for not responding earlier. I have been out of town all weak. I will try my best to keep this short.
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Originally Posted by HalfNelson
Joe you are absolutely right. God is always the FIRST cause of goodness in man or any being for that matter. No man can love God without God first revealing His love to them, however, once God does reveal His love to man, man is free to reject it.
No…..Man is NOT free to reject it. All throughout the bible you will find one pitiful commonality in regards to Man’s choice. And in respects to your statement it can be summed up as such “Man is a SINNER and WITHOUT GOD he will ALWAYS reject God!!”. Man is not ‘free’ to reject God, fact is he will ALWAYS reject God.
This is that “approach” I spoke of. Did you read the thread I gave you sir?? But I guess I can repeat myself a little here though. So here we go…
You state that “No man can love God without God first revealing His love to them…”. How come you can claim that as truth, but I cannot claim this as truth….”No man can choose God without God FIRST choosing them” (Jesus did…John 15:16). There are people who God did NOT choose in bible, are there not?? So if He does not choose them FIRST, how are they EVER going to choose Him?? In a nutshell, without going into too much on this (it is on the links though), if a Man has NOT chosen God, then God has YET to choose that Man (this is one thing Calvanism partially gets right). You use the word “revealing” in your statement. Need I list all the scriptures that show that God purposely “hides” things from people?? In your reply you state this…..
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Look at King Saul, he was called by God, lived a Godly life for a while, but in the end Saul was consumed by his sin and ultimately lost.
You are incorrect in your thinking sir. God did NOT call Saul in the manner you are thinking. Saul was SET UP to purposely FAIL.
A little walkthrough…..God is ALL-Knowing, therefore, He knew the Israelites would ask for a king BEFORE they even asked (Deu 17:14). God made Saul king solely to teach the Israelites a LESSON for “asking for a king”.
1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
God abides by their desires and tells them how their king is going to (in the FUTURE) treat them (1Sa 8:9-18). And He tells them these things BEFORE the king is even made “King”. So in a nutshell sir, Saul has NO CHOICE but to FAIL. Pretty amazing, because according to these scriptures, Saul BETTER fail, or else God could be construed as a liar. Therefore these things spoken of MUST COME TO PASS. Now think about this for a second HalfNelson. AFTER saying these things, God can give all these people choices all day long, but what was ‘already spoken’ MUST COME TO PASS. A choice like this perhaps…..
IF you CHOOSE to….(1Sa 12:14)
…..fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD,
Then….
….shall both ye AND also THE KING that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God:
Or you can CHOOSE to….(1Sa 12:25)
…..still do wickedly,
Then this will happen…..
ye shall be consumed, both ye and your king.
Now wait a minute!! This verse 1Sa 12:25, is saying that if “ye” (the people who ASKED for a King) choose wickedly, then you AND Saul are consumed. So, where pray tell is Saul’s choice in the matter here? He does NOT have one, it is all up to the people.
The following is the important thing that I am trying to get across to you.
BUT WHAT DID THEY CHOOSE????
Obviously, by reading the bible we can see they chose “unwisely”, but my point is this, they ALWAYS choose unwisely EVERY TIME!!!! Without fail, men who are NOT touched by God, will ALWAYS choose the BAD choice. We are SINNERS by nature, and we will do what is natural, which is sin (in this case, make bad choices).
This is no Mystery to God. He knows what they will choose, because they ALWAYS do the same things….
1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but THEY HAVE REJECTED ME, that I should not reign over them.
1Sa 8:8 According to all the works which they have done SINCE the day that I brought them up out of Egypt EVEN UNTO THIS DAY, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
That kind of says it all doesn’t it. (This is explained in the second thread I posted to you). That is why God can tell them that they WILL fail BEFORE they actually do. So ANY choice God gives to them, He ALREADY knows that they will fail at their choice (unless He guides/causes them to choose otherwise).
They made a CHOICE and a DESIRE, and God simply gave them what they wanted. They AND their King were doomed to fail the moment they asked for a king….
1Sa 12:12 And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.
1Sa 12:13 Now therefore behold the king whom ye have chosen, and whom ye have desired! and, behold, the LORD hath set a king over you.
At the very moment at which the “people” made Saul king, ….
1Sa 11:15 And all the people went to Gilgal; and there they made Saul king before the LORD in Gilgal; and there they sacrificed sacrifices of peace offerings before the LORD; and there Saul and all the men of Israel rejoiced greatly.
God is no longer touching Saul at the point “they made” him king. Saul’s actions are dictated by the “people’s” actions from this point on. Remember, God said, when they fail, Saul will fail, and Saul did fail…..
1Sa 15:24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.
I’m sorry, but I don’t see “freewill” in any of this. I see men choosing “unwisely” when NOT touched by God and choosing “wisely” when they ARE touched by God.
Heck, If I were to ask you….”Who killed Saul?”, you would most likely state “Saul killed himself, so he committed suicide” and quote the verse which states…..
1Sa 31:4 …… Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.
But I would give God total credit for “slaying” Saul….
1Ch 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;
1Ch 10:14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he (GOD) slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.
There it is, God says “he slew him”. Granted, He used Saul’s own hand to do it, but the point is, Saul’s free will had nothing to do with it. Everybody is going to go to the grave, and God will be the one bringing each and every person there.
1Sa 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
I could write much on Saul, and how God’s will ran things and not Man’s will. Just read 1Samuel and pay attention to phrases like “the Spirit of the Lord came upon” or “the Spirit of the Lord came departed” or “God sent” etc.
Now onto your next statement….
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Heck, Satan is a prime example of free will. God created Lucifer a perfect and mighty being. Chief among all other created beings, yet despite Lucifer being shown clearly the goodness of God and seeing Him in all His glory, he still chose rebellion.
Yep….God created Lucifer alright, that is, he created the Babylonian King, to whom this is addressing. This the only occurrence of this Hebrew word “heylel” in the bible. I for one believe this should be rendered as “howl”. You can believe it to be Lucifer if you wish, but the whole context here speaks of the King of Babylon. Satan was created from the beginning to do exactly what he is doing….
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Job 26:13“By His spirit He [God] has garnished [adorned] the heavens; His hand has formed the crooked serpent”
Isa. 54:16 “Behold I have created the smith that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for his work; and I [God] have created the waster [Heb: ‘destroyer’] to destroy”
The “Lucifer fell from heaven and became Satan” myth is riddled with pagan overtones. Believe me, God has total control over Satan as well.
Sa
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me with Adam/Eve in the Garden. They experienced God in all his glory, yet still made a choice contrary to His will. Free will is not a man made concept it is a scriptural God inspired concept. How can love exist if free will does not? Why place The Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden if free will is a myth? Why give them a choice, if they don't have free will?
How, pray tell, is man going to know “good” (much less evil), if he does not eat from that tree. God, all throughout the Bible, gives Man a choice of “Sin OR don’t Sin”. So, it doesn’t take a PhD to figure out what a SINNER is going to choose, when given that choice. So one could list all the “If thou do this, then this” or “choose this or that” choices that God gives throughout the bible, but unless they were TOUCHED by God, it records they ALWAYS chose “unwisely”. The Good AS WELL AS the Evil comes from the SAME tree. So, in answer to your question…
“Why place The Tree……in the garden if free will is a myth?”
First of all, Eve was "seduced" to CHOOSE what she chose (Gen 3:13). Seduction CAUSED her to choose what she chose. Therefore, her choice was NOT FREE from outside influences.
The Answer to your question: So you may learn WHAT you are!! So you will KNOW that WITHOUT GOD there is NO GOOD in you!! Face it HalfNelson….God’s commandments are IMPOSSIBLE to follow. Paul states that…
Rom 7:7 …… I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Yep….we know THAT WE SIN, by what the law says. So, in a nutshell, it teaches you that you are a SINNER!! Tell me sir, are you STILL a sinner?? I am. So why pray tell are we trying to FOLLOW these commandments, when we KNOW we canNOT do it. All of God’s choices, laws, commandments, etc. are to teach us that we are USELESS of ourselves. Believe me sir, your will MUST DIE, for His will to live in you. It is not your “bad choices” that must die and your “good choices” should live. There is NO GOOD in you. Any Good you do is OF GOD, not of YOU.
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"We are our own saviors" is absolutely not a logical conclusion to what I have been sharing with you. You seem determined to see it as that, but that is simply not the case. I can never save myself! Regardless of anything I do I will never be able to take credit for my salvation.
Simply put sir, your position dictates that if YOU do NOT jump into the boat then you are NOT saved, so that man can row that boat around your house all day long, because it ultimately doesn’t matter what HE does, it is what YOU DO. You preach that it is ultimately “up to the person to CHOOSE”. Therefore, a person’s choice SAVES them.
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If I am stuck on a roof top, in the midst of rising flood waters, and a man comes by in a boat and tells me to jump in, when we both get to the safety of dry land, can I at all tell others that I made it out on my own? Of course not, that would be ludicrous. In fact it would be ridiculous for me to take any credit for my salvation. Sure, it was my decision to jump into the boat, but had the guy in the boat not loved me enough to risk his life and bring his boat to the side of my roof then I would have had nothing to even jump into. The guy in the boat rescued me period. Did he do it against my will? No.
This is a good analogy, much can be written on it. I have always maintained that it is IMPOSSIBLE to make an UN-CAUSED choice. I have yet to have someone prove to me otherwise. So logically, the CAUSE existed BEFORE the choice was introduced. The CAUSE is what “makes” you choose this or that. To find out the CAUSE in any “choice scenario”, then all we have to do is ask “WHY did you choose that?”. And the answer usually starts with word “be-CAUSE”.
In regards to the subject of Christianity, the definition of “freewill” is as follows:
“The power of making free choices that are UNCONSTRAINED by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.”
This basically tells us that nothing INFLUENCES your choice, or CAUSES you to choose a certain way. So, my challenge to you is to present one choice that you or someone else has made that had absolutely “nothing” influencing the way you or they chose (hence, ‘no cause’). You will find NONE, because there is NO such choice, hence “no freewill”. The definition above does NOT allow an answer to the question of “Why did you choose that?”, because the ‘why’ is what ‘constrained’ you to make that choice in the first place. So let me ask the question of “why?” to a few things in your analogy.
Why, pray tell, are you even on the roof top in the first place? Could it be BE-CAUSE there is an “external circumstance” that FORCED (constrained, “caused”) you to go to the roof? Something like a FLOOD, maybe?
Why are you “stuck” there? Why not just go back inside the house? Could it be BE-CAUSE there is an “external circumstance” that FORCED you to be “stuck” on the roof? Something like a THREAT OF DEATH, maybe?
Why did you not save your stuff (tv, car, etc.) from damage, and bring them on the roof with you? Could it be BE-CAUSE there was an “external circumstance” that FORCED you to “Quickly” go to the roof with no time to bring them? Something like a FAST-RISING flood, maybe?
In regards to the man in the boat you say…
”….had the guy in the boat not loved me enough to risk his life and bring his boat to the side of my roof then I would have had nothing to even jump into”
Very true, but what I would ADD is…
If the man in the boat had not STARTED THE FLOOD in the first place, then you would NOT be at the PLACE where He is going to SAVE you. You pose a question after this is….
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The guy in the boat rescued me period. Did he do it against my will?
YES HE DID!! He brought about and manipulated “external circumstances” that FORCED/CONSTRAINED/CAUSED you to ABANDON your stuff and GO upon the roof. Ask yourself some things.
Did you WANT to be in the MIDST of a FLOOD??............ No!!
Did you WANT to LOSE all of your POSSESIONS??...........No!!
Did you WANT to be STUCK on the roof with NO WHERE ELSE to go??......No!!
Did you WANT to have the THREAT OF DEATH??............No!!
Did you WANT to SUFFER any of this??.......No!!
But here sir, HERE is the real clincher….
Did you CHOOSE to be in the MIDST of a FLOOD??............YES!!
(Why? Because your other choice would leave you DEAD in the MIDST of the FLOOD)
Did you CHOOSE to LOSE all of your POSSESIONS??...........YES!!
(Why? Because your other choice would leave you DEAD with your POSSESIONS)
Did you CHOOSE to be STUCK on the roof with NO WHERE ELSE to go??......YES!!
(Why? Because your other choice would cause you to DIE trying to SWIM YOURSELF out)
Did you CHOOSE to have the THREAT OF DEATH??............YES!!
(the other choice is the REALITY OF DEATH)
Did you CHOOSE to SUFFER any of this??.......YES!!
(because the alternative is DEATH)
I hope you get my point of view on this. You MUST be at the APPOINTED place at the APPOINTED time. Do not fear, believe me, He will get you there.
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I don't understand how so many people completely miss this aspect of salvation. If we had no choice in the matter why on Earth are we still here, on Earth, 2000 years after Calvary? I could go on and on, but I am sincere in wanting to simply know this question:
How can love exist if free will does not?
That is a good question and is worthy of an answer. You firmly believe that a person can exercise their “free will” to make good decisions or to make bad decisions. Here is now my analogy to you. Lets assume you have children.
IN YOUR HOME, you can create “eternal circumstances” that FORCE your child to ACT a certain way AGAINST THEIR WILL? It can be simple RULES(Laws), Consequences, locks, etc. The point is you WANT YOOUUUR WILL to be followed in the house, NOT THEIR WILL. “NO” is the easiest, and most likely the earliest, word for a child to understand. THEY JUST DON’T LIKE IT. I have a son, and he followed my “will rules”, and he did it against his will. I love my son very much and he knows it. He loves me very much, especially when he gets his way, but in due time, he will love me no matter what. Believe it or not, but your baby infant does NOT love you. He/she is accustomed to you and Learns to love you in due time. And the “external circumstances” you create CAUSE he/she to love you. Now, imagine a child who says that they HATE their mother or father. One would have to find out the circumstances that CAUSE them to hate. You see it can work both ways.
Christ FIRST loved us. We have LEARNED to Love Him. Therefore, if He loves the WHOLE world, then the WHOLE world will LEARN to love him in due season. He brings this all about in His “Mysterious Ways”. The way I and you think of the word FORCE may be different. Sorry this is so long and thank you for your conversation.
Halfnelson, you preach that it is ultimately “up to the person to CHOOSE”. Therefore, a person’s choice SAVES them.
I have always maintained that it is IMPOSSIBLE to make an UN-CAUSED choice.
I have yet to have someone prove to me otherwise.
So logically, the CAUSE existed BEFORE the choice was introduced.
The CAUSE is what “makes” you choose this or that.
To find out the CAUSE in any “choice scenario”, then all we have to do is ask “WHY did you choose that?”
And the answer usually starts with word “be-CAUSE”.
In regards to the subject of Christianity, the definition of “freewill” is as follows:
“The power of making free choices that are UNCONSTRAINED by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.”
This basically tells us that nothing INFLUENCES your choice, or CAUSES you to choose a certain way.
So, my challenge to you is to present one choice that you or someone else has made that had absolutely “nothing” influencing the way you or they chose (hence, ‘no cause’).
You will find NONE, because there is NO such choice, hence “no freewill”.
The definition above does NOT allow an answer to the question of “Why did you choose that?”, because the ‘why’ is what ‘constrained’ you to make that choice in the first place.
Christ FIRST loved us. We have LEARNED to Love Him. Therefore, if He loves the WHOLE world, then the WHOLE world will LEARN to love Him in due season. He brings this all about in His “Mysterious Ways”.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 11-23-2010 at 07:21 AM..
Reason: spelling
Which glorifies god? Justice or love, or justice and love.
I desire mercy, not sacrifice.
Zechariah 7:9 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Administer true justice--->>>>>show mercy and compassion to one another.
Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--->>>>>justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Romans 13:10. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
I Peter 4:8. Most important of all, continue to show deep love for each other, for love covers a multitude of sins.
Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
Galatians 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.
What great verses herefornow, but especially Zechariah 7:9 which I never noticed before. It explains what true justice is!
Zechariah 7:8 And the word of the LORD came again to Zechariah:
9 “This is what the LORD Almighty said: ‘Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another.
True justice is not letting someone be tortured forever.
True justice is not letting someone be annihilated forever.
True justice is showing mercy and compassion!
WOW!
Why, pray tell, are you even on the roof top in the first place? Could it be BE-CAUSE there is an “external circumstance” that FORCED (constrained, “caused”) you to go to the roof? Something like a FLOOD, maybe?
Why are you “stuck” there? Why not just go back inside the house? Could it be BE-CAUSE there is an “external circumstance” that FORCED you to be “stuck” on the roof? Something like a THREAT OF DEATH, maybe?
Why did you not save your stuff (tv, car, etc.) from damage, and bring them on the roof with you? Could it be BE-CAUSE there was an “external circumstance” that FORCED you to “Quickly” go to the roof with no time to bring them? Something like a FAST-RISING flood, maybe?
...
Did you WANT to be in the MIDST of a FLOOD??............ No!!
Did you WANT to LOSE all of your POSSESIONS??...........No!!
Did you WANT to be STUCK on the roof with NO WHERE ELSE to go??......No!!
Did you WANT to have the THREAT OF DEATH??............No!!
Did you WANT to SUFFER any of this??.......No!!
But here sir, HERE is the real clincher….
Did you CHOOSE to be in the MIDST of a FLOOD??............YES!!
(Why? Because your other choice would leave you DEAD in the MIDST of the FLOOD)
Did you CHOOSE to LOSE all of your POSSESIONS??...........YES!!
(Why? Because your other choice would leave you DEAD with your POSSESIONS)
Did you CHOOSE to be STUCK on the roof with NO WHERE ELSE to go??......YES!!
(Why? Because your other choice would cause you to DIE trying to SWIM YOURSELF out)
Did you CHOOSE to have the THREAT OF DEATH??............YES!!
(the other choice is the REALITY OF DEATH)
Did you CHOOSE to SUFFER any of this??.......YES!!
(because the alternative is DEATH)
I hope you get my point of view on this. You MUST be at the APPOINTED place at the APPOINTED time. Do not fear, believe me, He will get you there.
What a great post Joe, especially the above portion explaining about how people make choices. Yes 'tis true we make choices all day long yet none of them are uncaused thus we cannot have a free will. Its a simple fact.
But the ironic thing is: because wedon't have free will, people cannot stop believing they have a free will, until their appointed time to realize every choice they make has been caused by something else.
So perhaps your excellent post above will cause someone to realize that free will (as in choices free from any cause or constraint) simply cannot exist.
People suggest that "love is based on free will". "Without free will you could not have love". etc. But this is a myth. If you actually analyze love (the feeling, emotion, or action), you should realize it is extremely heavily influenced.
Has your wife ever asked you "why do you love me dear?" This is where every man thinks - I had better answer this one carefully lest I risk sleeping on the couch tonight...
So what do we answer? Do we say something like this? "I love you honey for no particular reason at all. Nothing causes me to love you. Its just my free will."
Let's think about that for a second. "Its just my free will" -> implying I only love my wife because I made a choice for no reason; the corollary being "I could just as easily choose to NOT love you of my own free will". Not very comforting ground for your wife.
Hmm.... perhaps that would not be so wise to answer your wife in that way, yet that is what the belief that "love requires 'free' will" would suggest. In reality you would probably answer something like this: "I love you honey because you are so beautiful, you are so kind, you are a good cook, and you take care of me when I'm sick".
See, love has nothing to do with free will and everything to do with reaction. These reactions cause you to fall in love. Usually the first reaction is the tingly feeling you get because you are physically attracted to another person. Then as you get to know the person you learn about their loving/kind nature, and how good a cook they are, etc.
All of these things together eventually cause you to fall in love with your wife to be.
The bible tells us that love is kind, love is patient, love is forgiving, love perseveres, love never fails... etc. You know the passage. These are all attributes, that when one is in love, they will try to do these things. These qualities attract us and form what love is. Its nothing to do with free will.
Even our relationship with Christ, as others have said: we love Him because He first loved us. There is a cause - a reason - that led us to choose Christ. It was a reaction to God loving us. God draws and enables men to believe in Christ - then they believe in Christ. But before that point they will not come to Christ. Man will not choose Christ until God draws Him - then the man will choose Christ.
Its that simple. Love has nothing to do with 'free will'.
People suggest that "love is based on free will". "Without free will you could not have love". etc. But this is a myth. If you actually analyze love (the feeling, emotion, or action), you should realize it is extremely heavily influenced.
Has your wife ever asked you "why do you love me dear?" This is where every man thinks - I had better answer this one carefully lest I risk sleeping on the couch tonight...
So what do we answer? Do we say something like this? "I love you honey for no particular reason at all. Nothing causes me to love you. Its just my free will."
Let's think about that for a second. "Its just my free will" -> implying I only love my wife because I made a choice for no reason; the corollary being "I could just as easily choose to NOT love you of my own free will". Not very comforting ground for your wife.
Hmm.... perhaps that would not be so wise to answer your wife in that way, yet that is what the belief that "love requires 'free' will" would suggest. In reality you would probably answer something like this: "I love you honey because you are so beautiful, you are so kind, you are a good cook, and you take care of me when I'm sick".
See, love has nothing to do with free will and everything to do with reaction. These reactions cause you to fall in love. Usually the first reaction is the tingly feeling you get because you are physically attracted to another person. Then as you get to know the person you learn about their loving/kind nature, and how good a cook they are, etc.
All of these things together eventually cause you to fall in love with your wife to be.
The bible tells us that love is kind, love is patient, love is forgiving, love perseveres, love never fails... etc. You know the passage. These are all attributes, that when one is in love, they will try to do these things. These qualities attract us and form what love is. Its nothing to do with free will.
Even our relationship with Christ, as others have said: we love Him because He first loved us. There is a cause - a reason - that led us to choose Christ. It was a reaction to God loving us. God draws and enables men to believe in Christ - then they believe in Christ. But before that point they will not come to Christ. Man will not choose Christ until God draws Him - then the man will choose Christ.
Its that simple. Love has nothing to do with 'free will'.
legoman......I cannot understand how someone cant see the undeniable fact of a CAUSE in the decision making process. It goes to show how far someone will go to keep a long-held belief in something. The truth truely does hurt. But OH how it tears down walls and blinders though.
Good post lego
Joe
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The whole world will learn to love jesus
perhaps that would not be so wise to answer your wife in that way, yet that is what the belief that "love requires 'free' will" would suggest. In reality you would probably answer something like this: