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Still posting the same old verses with the wrong interpretations of them . . . and still avoiding pcamp's question, Verna?
...and still assuming and concluding the same 'ol way you always do Mystic...?
I did answer it. You just didn't read it.
...and even when I do avoid questions and/or replies posted by UR's (which is most of the time)...that truly is something that shouldn't come as a shock to anyone...that is nothing new Mystic...rarely do I ever even read them when they are replies of the UR ilk . I just really don't stop to read most of them.
You can see the fallen human nature in false religions. They tend to base themselves on the idea of "might makes right". That is why traditional orthodox Christianity, along with Islam and many other religions, are theocratic ...
If you ask me, the example which Christ gave us truly communicates the express image of the father. And everything he did was the opposite of what fallen human nature and the religions built around it would do. He sacrificed himself, not only for those that are believing, but even for his enemies.
It is written the the greatest should be as though they were the least, and that the servant is truly the master. Why don't people understand that is how God relates to his creation? He is God, and he deserves to be God, not simply because he has authority and the power to squash his enemies when ever he sees fit, but mainly because he truly has the best interest for his creation.
He is the master, because he is the greatest of all servants, and he knows what every person ultimately needs and he has a plan and a purpose for every single one of us, even the ones that seem the most insignificant or even diabolical. It is Gods nature to overcome evil with Good, and it is not his nature to return evil for evil, because God is Good.
But the carnal nature doesn't seem to be able to accept that. The carnal nature relies on a system of punishment and reward, and can only thrive and develop within that environment. It requires the law, and knowledge of the law actually causes sin to increase within the carnal nature.
The law says eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth and to return evil for evil with equal measure, but Jesus says to forgive others, and to love our enemies and bless them and pray for them, and to turn the other cheek, and Paul echoed Christ and taught not to resist evil men but to overcome evil with Good.
The example Jesus provided by the life that he lived, regardless of how people may attempt to twist his words, completely and utterly denounces the traditional orthodox fundamentalist religions and what they teach.
There is so much excellent explanation here . . . but the last paragraph says it all.
Joe, I did go back and read that thread. I fully understand that MERCY is given out to all at the express will of God and regardless of what we say in the matter. Not a single individual is deserving of God's forgiveness, yet He freely gave it to all at Calvary. That was showing MERCY to all. What you fail to realize is that all the MERCY in the world won't save someone who doesn't want salvation. I know that the concept of someone not wanting salvation is odd to you but it shouldn't be. This world has many people in it that don't want anything to do with the goodness of God. I am still amazed at the fact that there is such I large group of people that cannot understand the basic nature of LOVE, and that it requires true freedom in order to exist. Your mind seems to be made up so I will stop trying to confuse you with the truth. Scripture is thrown around all day long on this forum, back and forth with people sometimes using the exact same texts to make opposing arguments. Between the two of us we seem to have the following options.
Option 1: Living in a universe where every being (Satan and his angels I would assume are included, unless of course God's "love" isn't quite that great), gets to live for eternity, yet lacks the freedom to choose otherwise.
Option 2: Living in a universe where the only ones who aren't there are those that chose not to be. In this universe freedom abounds and the LOVE is infinite, not because people are forced to be there but because they choose to be there.
I want option 2. Not because i don't have a love for those that will be lost, but because I would rather live in a free paradise vs a forced paradise. For a person who truly does not want eternity with God, then eternity with God would be eternal torment. If God forces a change within a persons heart, regardless of what that person desires, than God is simply loving himself through that person and that is not the selfless, other-centered love that my God is. Selfishness, is behind a God that says "I don't care what you want, I want you to spend eternity with me and so you will". A selfless God says "I want you to spend eternity with me, and I have provided a way for you to do that, but if that is not what you want I will not stand in the way of your choice to not exist." Those that miss out on eternity won't be suffering or in any pain, they will simply cease to exist.
HalfNelson.....Believe me, I know your position in this, because I once believed the same as you. All throughout the bible we read of the total failure of Man when left to himself. But those who God touched FIRST, are the ones who did righteousness, arent they. Name one person in scripture that chose God or to do God's will all by himself. You will ONLY find that God has ALWAYS chose, manipulated curcumstances, or drew them FIRST. Given your position, I was hoping you would explain those verses on that thread. To date, noone in your position has (it is alot of scripture to explain away). I am sorry HalfNelson, but your theology just cannot stand when tested with scripture. If you are interested, the below thread is a debate (between me and Mike555) with basically the same issue, but this fellow believes in ET rather than ED.
You are certainly not confusing me. Truth is in scripture not in the wisdom of men. I know it seems to make no sense at all to you for man not to have a freewill. And you feel this way by what is taught to you by men and NOT by scripture. Any scripture that "seemingly" shows that man is free to make a choice MUST agree with ALL other scripture. Show me the scriptures that say man has a free will and I will explain the best I can (using scripture) that they do not. The above thread might have answers to your approach though.
God knows exactly what He is doing. His plan has been working perfectly all along. If God can BLIND a man, how pray tell can he then SEE? If He can make DEAF a man, how can he then UNDERSTAND? If God can cause a man to believe in a LIE, how then can that man know TRUTH? What you fail to understand is that God takes TOTAL credit for these things and others, and you lay blame upon man for it. We are NOT our own saviors, which is the logical conclusion of your theology.
You do see things a little deep then most though. I'll give you that.
I think much of the scriptures on Hell is metaphoric, although much of the desciption I read sounds eerily like the heinous crimes and torture partaken in wars throughout the ages. I doubt that anyone has had an indepth "glimpse" of Hell as depicted in holy books.
Personally, I think earth plays a much bigger role in self-perfection than Christianity teaches. I think this testing ground, an opportunity to better ourselves and earn our place in serving God through how we live our lives and treat one another. It's a very difficult world with heavenly perfection not easily attained. And I don't think we have just one chance to do it.
I don't believe in "eternal torment". It would serve no purpose to send someone to such a place for all eternity. I tend to believe that evil-doers have to come BACK to earth, be reborn and start all over to either make atonement, or LEARN from past and present mistakes. Christianity does not recognize reincarnation but I do believe that we can return if we want to, and that Hell is right here on earth for those who were sent back for some work to do (which will be even harder the next time).
HalfNelson.....Believe me, I know your position in this, because I once believed the same as you. All throughout the bible we read of the total failure of Man when left to himself. But those who God touched FIRST, are the ones who did righteousness, arent they. Name one person in scripture that chose God or to do God's will all by himself. You will ONLY find that God has ALWAYS chose, manipulated curcumstances, or drew them FIRST. Given your position, I was hoping you would explain those verses on that thread. To date, noone in your position has (it is alot of scripture to explain away). I am sorry HalfNelson, but your theology just cannot stand when tested with scripture. If you are interested, the below thread is a debate (between me and Mike555) with basically the same issue, but this fellow believes in ET rather than ED.
You are certainly not confusing me. Truth is in scripture not in the wisdom of men. I know it seems to make no sense at all to you for man not to have a freewill. And you feel this way by what is taught to you by men and NOT by scripture. Any scripture that "seemingly" shows that man is free to make a choice MUST agree with ALL other scripture. Show me the scriptures that say man has a free will and I will explain the best I can (using scripture) that they do not. The above thread might have answers to your approach though.
God knows exactly what He is doing. His plan has been working perfectly all along. If God can BLIND a man, how pray tell can he then SEE? If He can make DEAF a man, how can he then UNDERSTAND? If God can cause a man to believe in a LIE, how then can that man know TRUTH? What you fail to understand is that God takes TOTAL credit for these things and others, and you lay blame upon man for it. We are NOT our own saviors, which is the logical conclusion of your theology.
You do see things a little deep then most though. I'll give you that.
Take care HN
Joe
Joe you are absolutely right. God is always the FIRST cause of goodness in man or any being for that matter. No man can love God without God first revealing His love to them, however, once God does reveal His love to man, man is free to reject it. Look at King Saul, he was called by God, lived a Godly life for a while, but in the end Saul was consumed by his sin and ultimately lost. Heck, Satan is a prime example of free will. God created Lucifer a perfect and mighty being. Chief among all other created beings, yet despite Lucifer being shown clearly the goodness of God and seeing Him in all His glory, he still chose rebellion. Same with Adam/Eve in the Garden. They experienced God in all his glory, yet still made a choice contrary to His will. Free will is not a man made concept it is a scriptural God inspired concept. How can love exist if free will does not? Why place The Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden if free will is a myth? Why give them a choice, if they don't have free will? "We are our own saviors" is absolutely not a logical conclusion to what I have been sharing with you. You seem determined to see it as that, but that is simply not the case. I can never save myself! Regardless of anything I do I will never be able to take credit for my salvation. If I am stuck on a roof top, in the midst of rising flood waters, and a man comes by in a boat and tells me to jump in, when we both get to the safety of dry land, can I at all tell others that I made it out on my own? Of course not, that would be ludicrous. In fact it would be ridiculous for me to take any credit for my salvation. Sure, it was my decision to jump into the boat, but had the guy in the boat not loved me enough to risk his life and bring his boat to the side of my roof then I would have had nothing to even jump into. The guy in the boat rescued me period. Did he do it against my will? No. I don't understand how so many people completely miss this aspect of salvation. If we had no choice in the matter why on Earth are we still here, on Earth, 2000 years after Calvary? I could go on and on, but I am sincere in wanting to simply know this question:
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