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The process that God is using to "effect a change in us" is the process of Calvary's cross. That is the fullest revelation of God's love, and we have this life and this life only, to accept or reject that. God's glory making people acutely aware of their guilt is not an overt act by God. It is part of the intrinsic nature of sin in the presence of God. God understand's that the time is coming when he will return to Earth in all His glory, and if we are not free of guilt, through acceptance of Calvary's gift, then we won't make it, and there is nothing that God can do about that. Just like He cannot make a square triangle, or force someone to love Him. That is why God reveals His truth to us bit by bit, in doses that we can absorb, and the more we open our hearts to Him the more of Himself He can reveal to us. God cannot effect any real change within us if we don't allow Him to do so. that is the nature of freewill, which is paramount to understanding God's love for us. If freewill does not exist than neither does love. God is love. And, love is complete other-centeredness. God showed us at Calvary just how self-sacrificng His love is, yet there are those out there that want to distort the very character of God and portray His love as not self-sacrificing enough to allow you to make an ultimate decision if it is counter to His will. Anyone holding on to the notion of God trampling on the will of others, is trampling on the very image of God's self-sacrificing love. If God could have just forced people to love Him, then Calvary would have been meaningless. Saying that there will be those that are lost, is not a declaration of Christ's love not being strong enough or willing enough to save them, it is simply a statement that there are those who refuse to be saved.
The difference can be understood by the scripture which states "behold, I stand at the door and knock", notice that it doesn't ever state that He will only knock for five minutes and then kick the door down. If He were to ever kick the door down, we would be stripped of freewill, however, we are free to open the door and invite Him in, and once He is in, then He can effect the change we so desperately need. Notice that it is not up to the person, to get Him to the door. God knocks on the door to every human heart, in some way. Some people respond to a light tap while others He may have to beat on the door or even pull out a megahorn while knocking, but He never kicks the door down.
First off, God cannot lie. Scripture makes that clear, and it is Satan who is the master deceiver, not God. God never hardens hearts against the will of man. Just like I have stated that God cannot effect change(have the door opened, and be ushered inside) in an unwilling heart, God can not be left outside against the will of man. You see, when scripture talks about God hardening the hearts of men, it is not talking about an overt act by God as if He set out to harden those hearts. Christ's presence amongst the pharisee stirred hatred inside of them, not because that was Christ's intent, but because of the depth of their selfishness and pride, whenever they witnessed Christ's goodness, their hearts were hardened through their own willful pride. Same with Pharaoh, God hardened Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh's selfish pride was willing to be hardened against God. It was not because God forced a feeling in Pharaoh, contrary to what Pharaoh willfully desired.
HalfNelson....I have addressed this issue of freewill with you before here....
....and you only gave your opinion on my point on Peter. You have much scripture to contend with if you are going stick with your belief on this....care to explain all the scriptures in that thread...or would you like me to post it all here??
Yes I agree, because one day the only beings who exist are those that accepted God's gift of forgiveness (or never sinned in the first place)
Please, point me to a scripture that says those in the second resurrection will joyously confess Him as Lord. I know that every knee will bow (including Satan) and they will all declare that Christ is Lord and that God is just, but that will simply be a statement of fact that all will at that time realize. Doesn't mean that all will be happy about it. You ever see the look on a football players face when he sees the instant replay, that shows clearly his foot was out of bounds? When the ref comes back and upholds the ruling on the field, the player accepts the ruling and knows that it is fair and just but doesn't necessarily like what that results in, which is his team not getting the touchdown.
Phl 2:11
and every tongue confess(exomologeō) that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The very meaning of the Greek word "exomologeō", is to celebrate and joyously and willingly confess ...
Quote:
exomologeō
1) to confess 2) to profess a) acknowledge openly and joyfully b) to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to c) to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage
It also means the giving of thanks and the making of a promise.
Rev 5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
Its hard to imagine most of humanity singing praises to Christ and giving thanks and worshiping him right before he throws them all into a literal fire and tortures them or annihilates them.
The truth is they will be celebrating because he will have made all things new again and restored all things to their original state before sin and death entered in ...
We are instructed to pray that Gods will be done on earth because one day it will be. All of it ... Its just a matter of time before he completes his design for creation.
It is unfortunate that most Christians believe that God made some sort of Cosmic mistake by allowing sin and death into the world instead of realizing that it was part of the plan all along.
And here lies the fundamental flaw in your idea of what God wants. God is LOVE. And that is all He seeks and wants. LOVE. All that God has ever done has been from the perspective of LOVE. If God is LOVE, and God is eternally self existing, then LOVE is just as eternal. LOVE is complete other-centeredness. In order for LOVE to always exist, more than one had to always exist, hence the trinity. The Father has always LOVED the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit has always LOVED the Father and the Son, and the Son has always LOVED the Father and the Holy Spirit. They have always existed in a LOVE that has always been focused outward not inward. What is the fundamental nature of LOVE that grows to fullness? True LOVE always grows to the point where it must be shared. This is why God created beings of any kind. To share in the experience that is LOVE. However, God understood something very important about the nature of LOVE. It could not ever be forced. True, other-centered, LOVE can only be experienced through FREE moral entities. If a being doesn't LOVE willingly, then they do not LOVE at all. The simple notion of this aspect of LOVE, was certainly known to our Creator. He understood that for beings He created to truly LOVE, they had to be free to not LOVE. Sin and death were NEVER part of God's will or desire. He did not plan FOR sin to enter the world, but had a plan IF it entered the world. I hope that the distinction between the 2 is clear.
I don't believe that God has ever been arbitrary. Sin is not sin simply because God says it is so. God does not determine what is good and bad based on a whim. God determines what is good and bad based on what is good for you or bad for you. If something leads to eternal life it is good for you if it leads to eternal death than it is bad for you. Sin is bad because it leads to death, not because God arbitrarily decided that sin will be bad. God understood before He created a single being, that if given the freedom to choose, some would choose death over life. Because He desired to create beings that are free, He knew that He could not determine, which specific individuals would make what choice, otherwise they would not be free. So, what were His options? It wasn't as though He could only create the ones that would choose life, they wouldn't necessarily be free. For true freedom to exist He had to be willing to suffer the hurt of the those that would reject the life He desired to give them, so that others could accept that same life. His only other option was to simply not create anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
God is in control, and he will accomplish his purpose and he will accomplish all that he desires, regardless of whether or not you believe it.
Imagine a man who controlled every aspect of his wife's life. When she woke up, went to the bathroom, what she ate for breakfast, what she would wear, what choices she would make, etc...... What would you call that husband? Would you say he is the most loving husband around, or would you say he is a control freak? We all know that he would be labeled a control freak, yet far too often we unknowingly paint that image of God. Are there things that God is in control of? Absolutely, but there are also things that God is not in control of, like the decisions of some to commit violations of the will of others. Can we put God in control of our lives? Absolutely, but that requires something on our part, it does not involve God controlling us against our will. Take the controlling husband example. Can the wife ask her husband's input on various aspects of her day? Certainly, and she can base her decisions on his input and his love for her, as well as her love for him. Can the husband influence her decisions throughout the day? Certainly, but are they ultimately her decisions to make? Absolutely. This is called a relationship, and it is what God seeks with every being He has ever created. People need to start throwing their RELIGION right out the window and open the door to a RELATIONSHIP with Christ.
Phl 2:11
and every tongue confess(exomologeō) that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The very meaning of the Greek word "exomologeō", is to celebrate and joyously and willingly confess ...
You know I find it very interesting the you provided a link to the text but did not even quote the text accurately. Phl 2:11
"And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Do you notice the word in bold that you left out? This word by its very nature would seem to indicate that what it is addressing is God's desire, while also making abundantly clear that what should happen doesn't always happen. The text doesn't say that every tongue WOULD confess (joyfully as this context of confess might indicate), it says that every tongue SHOULD confess. And that is very true, everyone should confess(joyfully), but not everyone will confess(joyfully).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
It also means the giving of thanks and the making of a promise.
Rev 5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
Its hard to imagine most of humanity singing praises to Christ and giving thanks and worshiping him right before he throws them all into a literal fire and tortures them or annihilates them.
The truth is they will be celebrating because he will have made all things new again and restored all things to their original state before sin and death entered in ...
The events of Rev 5:13 are, first of all, very symbolic (unless of course you honestly believe that shrimp, crabs, whales, sharks and other creatures that dwell in the sea will gain the gift of articulate speech). Secondly, John here is seeing a vision of future events, and considering that at some point in the future, the only beings who will be left alive are those who chose to accept Christ's free gift, then this event could certainly be describing that time.
You know I find it very interesting the you provided a link to the text but did not even quote the text accurately. Phl 2:11
"And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Do you notice the word in bold that you left out?
There is no separate word for the should that is translated there in the KJV. The word is still exomologeō as Iron has stated. It can be translated in many ways . . . including as "acknowledge" . . . which leaves no room for confusion.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 11-14-2010 at 08:30 PM..
You do know that everyones hell is actually based on thier sins, burning with the desire for the sin and getting no relief. Imagine having to pee and not being able to and constant having the feeling. Put you very own sin to the test with no relief and imagine what God means by burning.
You do know that everyones hell is actually based on thier sins, burning with the desire for the sin and getting no relief. Imagine having to pee and not being able to and constant having the feeling. Put you very own sin to the test with no relief and imagine what God means by burning.
Are you saying you drank too much and now have to go pee?
You know I find it very interesting the you provided a link to the text but did not even quote the text accurately. Phl 2:11
"And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Do you notice the word in bold that you left out? This word by its very nature would seem to indicate that what it is addressing is God's desire, while also making abundantly clear that what should happen doesn't always happen. The text doesn't say that every tongue WOULD confess (joyfully as this context of confess might indicate), it says that every tongue SHOULD confess. And that is very true, everyone should confess(joyfully), but not everyone will confess(joyfully).
The events of Rev 5:13 are, first of all, very symbolic (unless of course you honestly believe that shrimp, crabs, whales, sharks and other creatures that dwell in the sea will gain the gift of articulate speech). Secondly, John here is seeing a vision of future events, and considering that at some point in the future, the only beings who will be left alive are those who chose to accept Christ's free gift, then this event could certainly be describing that time.
Phl 2:11 and Rev 5:13 are Paul and John quoting or referring to the words of Isaiah and King David ...
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
Psa 66:4
"All the earth will worship You, And will sing praises to You; They will sing praises to Your name." Selah.
Psa 67:4 Let the nations be glad and sing for joy; For You will judge the peoples with uprightness And guide the nations on the earth. Selah.
(Why should the people of the world sing for joy if Gods judgments amount to most of humanity being tortured and or annihilated?)
Psa 98:4 Shout to the LORD, all the earth; break out in praise and sing for joy!
Psa 145:3-9
Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise;his greatness no one can fathom.
One generation will commend your works to another;
they will tell of your mighty acts.
They will speak of the glorious splendor of your majesty,
and I will meditate on your wonderful works.
They will tell of the power of your awesome works,
and I will proclaim your great deeds. They will celebrate your abundant goodness and joyfully sing of your righteousness.
The Lord is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and rich in love. The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made. <----------- !!!!!! All you have made will praise you, O Lord; <----------- !!!!!!
your saints will extol you.
Isa 26:19
But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.
Isa 45:23
By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.
Peace ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-14-2010 at 09:33 PM..
....and you only gave your opinion on my point on Peter. You have much scripture to contend with if you are going stick with your belief on this....care to explain all the scriptures in that thread...or would you like me to post it all here??
Joe, I did go back and read that thread. I fully understand that MERCY is given out to all at the express will of God and regardless of what we say in the matter. Not a single individual is deserving of God's forgiveness, yet He freely gave it to all at Calvary. That was showing MERCY to all. What you fail to realize is that all the MERCY in the world won't save someone who doesn't want salvation. I know that the concept of someone not wanting salvation is odd to you but it shouldn't be. This world has many people in it that don't want anything to do with the goodness of God. I am still amazed at the fact that there is such I large group of people that cannot understand the basic nature of LOVE, and that it requires true freedom in order to exist. Your mind seems to be made up so I will stop trying to confuse you with the truth. Scripture is thrown around all day long on this forum, back and forth with people sometimes using the exact same texts to make opposing arguments. Between the two of us we seem to have the following options.
Option 1: Living in a universe where every being (Satan and his angels I would assume are included, unless of course God's "love" isn't quite that great), gets to live for eternity, yet lacks the freedom to choose otherwise.
Option 2: Living in a universe where the only ones who aren't there are those that chose not to be. In this universe freedom abounds and the LOVE is infinite, not because people are forced to be there but because they choose to be there.
I want option 2. Not because i don't have a love for those that will be lost, but because I would rather live in a free paradise vs a forced paradise. For a person who truly does not want eternity with God, then eternity with God would be eternal torment. If God forces a change within a persons heart, regardless of what that person desires, than God is simply loving himself through that person and that is not the selfless, other-centered love that my God is. Selfishness, is behind a God that says "I don't care what you want, I want you to spend eternity with me and so you will". A selfless God says "I want you to spend eternity with me, and I have provided a way for you to do that, but if that is not what you want I will not stand in the way of your choice to not exist." Those that miss out on eternity won't be suffering or in any pain, they will simply cease to exist.
A selfless God says "I want you to spend eternity with me, and I have provided a way for you to do that, but if that is not what you want I will not stand in the way of your choice to not exist." Those that miss out on eternity won't be suffering or in any pain, they will simply cease to exist.
The God I worship is a selfish God.
My God wants everyone who needs saving to be with Him forever, and He is going to get them all without any failures.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure." (end of quote)
That will be the result of God's love in action.
As the hymn says,
"O Love that will not let me go.
I rest my weary soul on Thee."
Last edited by rodgertutt; 11-15-2010 at 06:46 AM..
Reason: spacing
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The god i worship is a selfish god
