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...the doctrine of Universal salvation is a lie from the pit of hell.
Our careful investigation of the relevant Biblical data has shown that the wicked will be resurrected for the purpose of divine judgment. This will involve a permanent expulsion from God’s presence into a place where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth. After a period of conscious suffering as individually required by divine justice, the wicked will be consumed with no hope of restoration or recovery. The ultimate restoration of believers and the extinction of sinners from this world will prove that Christ’s redemptive mission has been an unqualified victory. Christ’s victory means that "the former things have passed away" (Rev 21:4), and only light, love, peace, and harmony will prevail throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity.
Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Andrews University
...and to this I say...Amen.
In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt
Interested readers will decide for themselves.
...yes...they will...
Hell - Eternal Torment or Annihilation...?
Do impenitent sinners suffer conscious punishment in body and soul for all eternity, or are they annihilated by God in the second death after suffering a temporary punishment?
The first part of the chapter analyzes the major Biblical texts and arguments used to support the literal view of hell as the place of a literal everlasting punishment of the wicked.
The second chapter considers briefly two alternative interpretations of hell.
1. The metaphorical view - which regards hell as a place where suffering is more mental than physical. The fire is not literal but metaphorical, and the pain is caused more by the sense of separation from God than by physical torments.
2. The Universalist view of hell, which turns hell into a purging, refining fire that ultimately makes it possible for every person to make it into heaven.
The third part of this chapter presents the annihilation view (to which I subscribe) of hell as a place of the ultimate dissolution and annihilation of the unsaved. Some call this "conditional immortality," because our study of the Biblical wholistic view of human nature shows that immortality is not an innate human possession, it is a divine gift granted to believers on condition of their faith response.
God will not resurrect the wicked to immortal life in order to inflict upon them a punishment of eternal pain. Rather the wicked will be resurrected mortal in order to receive their punishment which will result in their ultimate annihilation.
God Bless you.
[quote=sciotamicks;16801410]The doctrine of Christ's death is a one time only event.
Limited punishment is a made up doctrine that makes the gospel of none effect.[/quote]
...again sciota...Amen!
In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
The doctrine of Christ's death is a one time only event.
Limited punishment is a made up doctrine that makes the gospel of none effect.
The gospel (meaning "good news") is that sooner or later everyone will benefit from what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross. For those who need it kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) will be experienced.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it. THE SCRIPTURAL USE OF KOLASIS AIONION Chapter Eleven
Last edited by rodgertutt; 11-27-2010 at 06:06 PM..
Reason: spacing
Verna i would just like you to know that the believer has no enemies whatsoever,if God had enemies the believer would too.The only enemy the believer as, is himself.
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6 :35
If you read Col 1 : 21 , you will discover thatWE were enemies in our mind towards God,it does not say God was an enemy in his mind towards us??????
A wonderful example of this is the conversion of Paul, Paul was an enemy of the way , but on that road to Damascus did he meet a God who was for him or against him ?
Verna He loves sinners whether they are the worst of sinners, ignorant sinners, willful sinners or whatever label you want to slap on the sinner, at Calvary he paid for all sin.
The gospel (meaning "good news") is that sooner or later everyone will benefit from what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross. For those who need it kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) will be experienced.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it. THE SCRIPTURAL USE OF KOLASIS AIONION Chapter Eleven
The gospel of pending salvation makes Christ's sacrifice of none effect. It negates the power of the cross, in that one must be baptized into Christ's death, and raised to life with Him. The scriptures do not teach chastisement during the age(s). Christ was already chastised for us.
The gospel of pending salvation makes Christ's sacrifice of none effect. It negates the power of the cross, in that one must be baptized into Christ's death, and raised to life with Him. The scriptures do not teach chastisement during the age(s). Christ was already chastised for us.
Your theology falls apart at the cross.
And yet again SCiotamicks teaches what is contrary to the scriptures. He says "the scriptures do not teach chastisement during the age(s)".
But this i s what the scriptures actually do teach ...
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to children, My son, despise not you the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are rebuked of him:
Hebrews 12:6-11
For whom the Lord loves he chastens, and whips every son whom he receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chastens not? But if you be without chastisement, whereof ALL are partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits, and live? For they truly for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to them which are exercised thereby.
So the scriptures do teach that God chastens all those whom he loves, in order that we might be made righteous and holy. And ALL PEOPLE are partakers of the lord chastening, for THE LORD LOVES ALL PEOPLE. And in the end, all will be made righteous and holy by the chastening of the love of God, as God WILL have all people to be saved, and he IS the savior of all people.
And yet again SCiotamicks teaches what is contrary to the scriptures. He says "the scriptures do not teach chastisement during the age(s)".
But this i s what the scriptures actually do teach ...
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to children, My son, despise not you the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are rebuked of him:
Hebrews 12:6-11
For whom the Lord loves he chastens, and whips every son whom he receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chastens not? But if you be without chastisement, whereof ALL are partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits, and live? For they truly for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to them which are exercised thereby.
So the scriptures do teach that God chastens all those whom he loves, in order that we might be made righteous and holy. And ALL PEOPLE are partakers of the lord chastening, for THE LORD LOVES ALL PEOPLE. And in the end, all will be made righteous and holy by the chastening of the love of God, as God WILL have all people to be saved, and he IS the savior of all people.
Wow, you really got ALL THAT out of those few verses? Try reading the whole book, but better yet,,,let me undo your highlights, and add a few of my own.
Quote:
Hebrews 12:6-11
For whom the Lord loves he chastens, and whips every son whom he receives. IF you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chastens not? But IFyou be without chastisement, whereof ALL are partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: SHALL WE not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits, and live? For they truly for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that WE MIGHT BE partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to them which are exercised thereby.
You have taken the word all, again, and applied it to ALL HUMANS, whereas that is NOT what it is saying. Firstly, this letter is written TO the Hebrews. Second, notice the 'IF...THEN' God deals with you as sons. Not unlike Romans 8:14, which tells us who the sons of God are.
" FOR ALL WHO ARE BEING LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THESE ARE SONS OF GOD"!
Notice the ALL? Does this now also mean EVERY HUMAN BEING? I think not.
God does not preserve the life of the wicked, But gives justice to the oppressed.
On his pretarist thread Sciotamicks has already said that he will NEVER accept universal reconciliation as the truth.
After having read the works of J. Preston Eby I will NEVER accept eternal torment or cessation of life for some of God's creatures to be the truth
So we have eternal torment, and poofer-outer theology, versus universal transformation theology, all three claiming to be based on the Bible.
Well, there is one thing on which we CAN agree.
Originally Posted by rodgertutt
Quote:
Interested readers will decide for themselves.
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
Quote:
...yes...they will...
So be it!! I'm cool with that.
A great fifteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.
Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid biblical perspective. Highly Recommended!
Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World
Last edited by rodgertutt; 11-27-2010 at 08:21 PM..
Reason: spelling
Originally Posted by Eusebius Just the fact that God over and over told them to repent and they refused over and over again is proof they not only would not repent but could not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
The remnant did. They were Jews.
The remnant according to God's choice. In other words, it was all according to God's choice who of the Jews would be part of the remnant.
Why don't you focus on what God told Isaiah that the Jews would be blinded, hearts hardened and ears stopped up so they could not believe?
And Jesus quoted that too and told His disciples that that was why He talked to the Jews by parables so they would not believe.
And Paul quoted the isaiah verse too to prove that the jews could not believe in Acts.
The gospel of pending salvation makes Christ's sacrifice of none effect. It negates the power of the cross, in that one must be baptized into Christ's death, and raised to life with Him. The scriptures do not teach chastisement during the age(s). Christ was already chastised for us.
Your theology falls apart at the cross.
"God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for . . . Christ gave himself a ransom for all" (1 tim.2:4-6).
The saving of all mankind is fully dependent upon Christ's sacrifice.
We were baptized into his death when He died, not when we believe.
The scripture does teach chastisement during the age(s):
"And these shall go into age-during chastening" (Matt.25:46).
Christ died for our sins but He did not die to keep us from needful loving discipline.
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Hell...Eternal Torment or Annihilation...?
Interested readers will decide for themselves
