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Originally Posted by HotinAZ;16807873Where? Point me to that post please.
Why do you insist it is all about you? Kinda self centered isn't it? It is ALL about Jesus, His Son. Either you are IN Jesus, or you are not.
Nice play on words, but it sounds like you need a biblical understanding of who and what God actually is.
The carnality was at emnity with God because of the fall.
[COLOR=navy
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.[/color]
So, either you believe we are enemies of God, and MAYBE reconciled by Jesus, who is our peace,,,or you do not. You cannot have it both ways. You preach a false doctrine, because you believe that there is peace upon death for the non believer.
Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," performed in the flesh by human hands—that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Who is brought near? Who is Paul writing to?
To the saints who are at Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus
No, they believed their works would save them,,,along with their words. Kinda like you all.
It doesn't matter what I believe. It matters what the Word says. Try researching the word emnity.
And I stand by it, because the Word says so. Try refuting the Word instead of me. I am but a man,,,but the Word endures forever. Here is a verse for you if you can handle it:
You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility(echthra=emnity=hatred) toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy(echthros=hated, odious, hateful) of God.
How can one be hated of God?
READ THE VERSE.
You are the one who is trying to have it both ways ... I asked you if you believed that God loved all people, and you said you don't believe God loves all people, but only those people of that he has made a covenant with.
In case you didnt realize it, most people are not Christians and or Jews. So if God only loves Christians and Jews, as you claim, them God does not love most of humanity.
I asked ...
"Let me get this straight, are you saying that God does not love all people?"
to which you replied ...
"That is EXACTLY what I am saying. Is it any clearer to you?"
Then you quoted these verses ...
Ps 5
For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You. The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You HATE ALL who do iniquity. You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD ABHORS the man of bloodshed and deceit.
Ps 11
The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul HATES. Upon the wicked He will rain snares; Fire and brimstone and burning wind will be the portion of their cup. For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness; The upright will behold His face.
Its funny how it was David who wrote the psalms, and it was David who had the husband of the woman that he lusted after and coveted sent to the front lines to be killed so that he could marry his wife.
Doesn't that make David one who did iniquity? Did God abhor or hate David?
If God does not love everyone, then who does God love in your opinion?
What people who live on earth today does God love? Do you believe that he loves people who do not believe that Jesus is the messiah and the only begotten son of God?
Tell me, who do you believe that God loves and who do you believe that God hates and why does he love the ones that he loves and why does he hate the ones that he hates?
Does God love his enemies? Did Jesus love his enemies? Do you believe that Jesus is God?
IF God does not love his enemies, then doesn't that make him an hypocrite, seeing that Jesus commanded us to love our enemies in order to be like God?
If God does love his enemies, then exactly who is it that God does not love?
P.S.
Quote one place where i or someone else who believe in UR teaches that we are saved by our works. You have proven to be one of the most disingenuous persons on this forum. I have always taught that there is nothing we Can do to save ourselves, that even our repentance and faith in Christ is due to the work of God in our lives, something which you deny ...
So if God only loves Christians and Jews, as you claim, them God does not love most of humanity.
The ETer's love to quote Psalm 5:5. They love to tell others (whom they despise) that God hates them. Unfortunately, they usually forgot to mention that they too were once God's enemy (and still may be...lol). They always leave that little truth out!
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
But don't you see. You're using translations to prove your assumptions. How do you know that your translation is faithful to the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts?
Also, if you try to demonstrate that many believed in eternal torment, how are you going to prove that Jesus actually taught it? There have always been those within the covenant of Grace who have believed in God who justifies the ungodly (Rom 4:5), and there will always be those who believe they are justified by their own doings. All you're really able to tell us is what you believe and what is in your heart, not necessarily what Jesus taught. One thing that Jesus did tell us is that a good person brings forth good things.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Do you believe eternal torment is a good thing or an evil thing?
We know the Scriptures are faithful, because they number in the thousands, and cover many time periods. And they are in agreement. And there will always be those who ignore these Scriptures. And there will always be those who deny the teachings of Christ, because they do not believe the Words He has given us. Even a good mans works are but filth rags before God's throne. A good man will attempt to follow God. Yet we who believe ourselves to be good, are all sinners. Eternal torment is the end result of those who willingly disobey God. Eternal torment is not so much a question of being good or evil. It is where evil resides.
Romans 4:5 is a perfect example of how the theif on the cross was given eternal life based only on his faith only. Scripture clearly states that it is faith alone that saves us, not works. Works only shows that we are sincere. Yet it is faith alone in Christ that saves us.
We know the Scriptures are faithful, because they number in the thousands, and cover many time periods. And they are in agreement. And there will always be those who ignore these Scriptures. And there will always be those who deny the teachings of Christ, because they do not believe the Words He has given us. Even a good mans works are but filth rags before God's throne. A good man will attempt to follow God. Yet we who believe ourselves to be good, are all sinners. Eternal torment is the end result of those who willingly disobey God. Eternal torment is not so much a question of being good or evil. It is where evil resides.
Romans 4:5 is a perfect example of how the theif on the cross was given eternal life based only on his faith only. Scripture clearly states that it is faith alone that saves us, not works. Works only shows that we are sincere. Yet it is faith alone in Christ that saves us.
Eternal Torment in a pagan Myth. You are deceived. God is the savior of all people, and he will have all people to be saved, because he is not willing that any should perish. The violent traditions of men which you teach will pass away ...
We know the Scriptures are faithful, because they number in the thousands, and cover many time periods. And they are in agreement. And there will always be those who ignore these Scriptures. And there will always be those who deny the teachings of Christ, because they do not believe the Words He has given us. Even a good mans works are but filth rags before God's throne. A good man will attempt to follow God. Yet we who believe ourselves to be good, are all sinners. Eternal torment is the end result of those who willingly disobey God. Eternal torment is not so much a question of being good or evil. It is where evil resides.
Romans 4:5 is a perfect example of how the theif on the cross was given eternal life based only on his faith only. Scripture clearly states that it is faith alone that saves us, not works. Works only shows that we are sincere. Yet it is faith alone in Christ that saves us.
Yes, the original scriptures are faithful, but are the translations you use faithful to them? And can you demonstrate conclusively that your translation of eternal torment is the only correct one?
Concerning the term "good man", I think you're missing my point. No man is actually good, right?:
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
So, when Jesus was speaking of "a good man" who brings forth good things, was He speaking of man or Himself that brings forth good things? And if Jesus (He being Jehovah God in the flesh) brings forth good things out of His heart, why do you say he brings forth evil teachings of eternal torment?
That's why I asked you: Do you believe eternal torment is a good thing or an evil thing?
Yes, the original scriptures are faithful, but are the translations you use faithful to them? And can you demonstrate conclusively that your translation of eternal torment is the only correct one?
Concerning the term "good man", I think you're missing my point. No man is actually good, right?:
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
So, when Jesus was speaking of "a good man" who brings forth good things, was He speaking of man or Himself that brings forth good things? And if Jesus (He being Jehovah God in the flesh) brings forth good things out of His heart, why do you say he brings forth evil teachings of eternal torment?
That's why I asked you: Do you believe eternal torment is a good thing or an evil thing?
Hells eternal torment is not evil. It is a clear judgement from God. God destroying the earth with a flood and it's population was not evil. God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah with fire was not evil either. They are all clear judgements from God. And outside of the Majority Text. There is no other quantity of Christian Texts that would support a non Eternal torment. You will need to write your own Scriptures in order to get such a read. God's Word is direct. The problem is, man as usual is looking for some kind of loophole. And hell will be filled with such people. And that is because God is looking for those who willingly follow and believe Him. (JESUS) My sheep hear my voice and they follow Me.
Last edited by Campbell34; 11-28-2010 at 03:03 PM..
Please continue reading and studying, you may end up learning a few things.
Judgment with mercy, brings everyone to their knees eventually.
What nags at the back of my mind, Jerwade . . . is the idea that we reap what we sow . . . bitterness sows biiter fruit . . . etc. and that what we ourselves create in our minds might just be what we find at the end of life. A truly sobering thought as I look back over my life. When I combine that with my absolute certainty that our consciousness is eternal and everything we think and feel in our consciousness cannot destroyed but must be either "repented" in this life or "refined" in the next . . . it makes my concern over these heinous doctrines of fear and ET of our brothers and sisters truly troubling.
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