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Remember, they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Here is a snippet from the introduction.
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Due to the influence of the reasoning of Augustine, the church council voted to make eternal torment an official church doctrine in the sixth century.
But even Augustine himself said, “There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments.”
The argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness.
But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." That is, the last, the final one in order.
How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been vivified, or made alive, IN CHRIST. There will then be no more death. Just as life is destroyed by death, so death is destroyed by life. Our present bodies are mortal and corruptible (1 Cor. 15:44-55), but when mankind is made alive IN CHRIST they will be raised immortal and incorruptible.
Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, Jesus is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
As a universalist, I don't preach that all are saved, I preach that all will be saved. I wanted to comment on your post because I wanted to say that Faith is given by God. Even the Apostles knew this when they went to ask their Lord (Jesus) to increase their Faith.
If you preach that we will all be saved. Then you are preaching a lie. Because Jesus tells us those who reject Him will suffer (ETERNAL PUNISHMENT). How can Eternal Punishment be a temporary condition? And if it is a temporary condition. Then Jesus lied to us which makes him a liar. I simply believe what Jesus has so clearly told us.
If you preach that we will all be saved. Then you are preaching a lie. Because Jesus tells us those who reject Him will suffer (ETERNAL PUNISHMENT). How can Eternal Punishment be a temporary condition? And if it is a temporary condition. Then Jesus lied to us which makes him a liar. I simply believe what Jesus has so clearly told us.
MORE SPECIFICALLY READ THE LAST HALF OF POST #701 starting at "Due to the influence of the reasoning of Augustine, the church council voted to make eternal torment an official church doctrine in the sixth century."
If you preach that we will all be saved. Then you are preaching a lie. Because Jesus tells us those who reject Him will suffer (ETERNAL PUNISHMENT). How can Eternal Punishment be a temporary condition? And if it is a temporary condition. Then Jesus lied to us which makes him a liar. I simply believe what Jesus has so clearly told us.
Lol. Come on, that's just being contrary. If the condition was temporary then that would mean Jesus said it was, therfore he wouldn't be a liar.
I believe the New Living Translation gives us a better picture of
Romans 4:5.
"But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, (BUT BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH IN GOD WHO FORGIVES SINNERS).
Now did you miss that part? People who are forgiven, are people who place (THEIR FAITH IN GOD). God is not giving out blank checks. People who are forgiven are those who place their faith in God. Most of the World does not place their faith in God.
Also, if you believe that all are saved. Then when Jesus tells us that sinners who enter the fires of Hell. And their torment will be for ever and ever. Your belief would make Jesus statement a lie. Thus making Christ a liar. Your belief is truly a departure from the truth. And your belief requires you to ignore the clear teachings of Christ. It's a belief of patchwork. Trying to make your arguement by presenting some Scriptures, while ignoring the others.
The paraphrase you're using (the NLT version) essentially says the same thing as the more literal translations like the KJV, LITV or YLT do. Believers ARE counted (imputed) as righteous. And the believers faith is in Jesus who forgives sinners (the ungodly). And this we both agree on.
But I can also tell that you're not really grasping the truth of what Paul is telling us. There are two components to what Paul says in Rom 4:5:
1. Jesus justifies the ungodly.
2. Those who believe that Jesus justifies the ungodly are imputed with the righteousness of Christ.
Now, we both agree on the second component. At least I think we do...lol
However, the first component, the truth that Jesus justifies the ungodly, you've said you do not believe in. You've told us that Jesus will cast the ungodly into hell to be tormented with fire for eternity.
Your doctrine of eternal torment is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught in His Sermon on the Mount.
If we go back to the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said this concerning our enemies:
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
When Jesus hung on the cross at Calvary, He demonstrated to us what he also taught. Jesus demonstrated His love, kindness and compassion towards His enemies (the ungodly) by forgiving their sins and reconciling them back to Himself. Jesus was Jehovah God who died on the cross to justify Saul, you, me and all the rest of the ungodly ones (all mankind). He also prayed for his persecutors while on the cross, that their sins be forgiven. Jesus demonstrated exactly what He Himself taught.
Those words and instructions of Christ were not figurative language like many of His parables. He gave us a real life demonstration of what He taught and wanted us to believe.
Jesus does not torment the ungodly for eternity as you've told us, and as many believe His parables teach. But rather He justifies the ungodly by His own blood through His death and in His resurrection. The ungodly ARE forgiven, and not by what they do, but rather by what Jesus did for them. We are justified freely by His Grace:
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Next, Paul goes on to tell us (Rom 4:5) that those who believe in Him (Jesus) who justifies the ungodly are imputed with righteousness. The righteousness of Christ:
1Co 1:30 and of Him ye--ye are in Christ Jesus, who became to us from God wisdom, righteousness also, and sanctification, and redemption,
Those who do not believe that Jesus justifies the ungodly are not (in the present tense) in Christ Jesus or imputed with His righteousness.
ETer's (in their ET'ing) proclaim and testify that they are NOT in Christ or imputed with Christ's righteousness. And the reason is because they do NOT believe in Him who justifies the ungodly. But this is not their final end. Jesus' love for the ungodly and ETer's does not end at the cross! They too, like believers, will also be saved (future tense) by His life. Christ was resurrected, He is alive for evermore!:
Rev 1:18 and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.
And those justified (all the ungodly) shall be saved by his life:
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
The difference between those who believe now, and those who don't (those called saints vs. those called ungodly) is timing. God's timing. Jesus decides when to call, regenerate and give faith to the dead. He has the keys of hades and death and it is Jesus who will release the prisoners from captivity and give life to the dead. And He does so when His Spirit chooses (Joh 3:8). Jesus will accomplish (future tense) all that He wills, desires and taught us:
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Do you agree with any of this? This is a long post and I pretty much said all I can. Anyway, God bless in your studies.
Finn, Campbell, read the other posts. There is no such thing as 'eternal life'. Eternal life is translated from the words 'aionios zoe' - which means to know God, and to live more abundantly. Ironmaw explained this.
Yet there is immortality. Do not confuse this with what is translated as 'eternal life' (aionios zoe). I know this has been explained to you before.
I am not confused about it. Jesus speaks about eternal life, not some unspecified time in a temporary place.
'This age' below means temporary time, our life on earth, and 'eternal life' means exactly what it says - never ending life.
Mark 10:29-30 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel who will not receive in this age a hundred times as much – homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, fields, all with persecutions – and in the age to come, eternal life.
I am not confused about it. Jesus speaks about eternal life, not some unspecified time in a temporary place.
'This age' below means temporary time, our life on earth, and 'eternal life' means exactly what it says - never ending life.
Mark 10:29-30 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel who will not receive in this age a hundred times as much – homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, fields, all with persecutions – and in the age to come, eternal life.
Yes you are confused about it, because Jesus did not speak about eternal life. You are reading English words. Jesus did not speak English. He spoke about aionios zoe - which means living life abundantly, knowing God (as explained previously). It is referring to ages or pertaining through ages.
So your question regarding Mat 25:46 is answered. If in Mat 25:46, 'eternal' punishment does not mean unending punishment, neither does 'eternal' life mean unending life. Yes that's exactly right.
That is why there is also the necessity of immortality. We will live forever because we will be given immortality, not because of aionios zoe.
Should literally read
"and in the coming eon, life eonian"
See what the many Greek scholars in chaptersthree and twelve say about it in AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS An Analytical Study of Words
It's quite true that the ET vs UR debate frequently gets bogged down in a stalemate by each side saying "my Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars."
Personally, I choose the one that I perceive most glorifies God.
I imagine ETers will say they are doing the same.
Finn read this portion of Ironmaw's post. He explains it well. Aionios zoe is not "unending life" nor "eternal life".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
The words in the Greek which are translated as "eternal life" are "aionios zoe", which when literally translated mean "life of the age". "Aionios Zoe" does not mean "eternal life".
Jesus tells us what the definition of "aionios zoe" is, and that is "to know Christ and his father who sent him".
"Aionios zoe" is to have life and to have it more abundantly now, and even more so in the kingdom age when we will rule with Christ.
Those who do not have it(life of the age - aionios zoe) are spiritually dying, and do not have the abundant life which believers have now because of the quickening of the spirit within them, and neither will they take part in the first resurrection and have life in the kingdom age and rule with Christ a thousand years.
We will one day have immortality and incorruption, but the Greek words for immortality and incorruption are not "aionios zoe", they are "aphtharsia" and "athanasia" ...
Romans 2:7
to those on the one hand who, by lives of persistent right-doing, are striving for glory, honour and immortality(aphtharsia), the Life of the Ages(aionios Zoe)
We see in the verse above that God gives "the life of the ages" to those who strive for glory and honor and immortality ...
Immortality is not the same thing as the life of the ages, though those who receive the life of the ages will also one day receive Immortality after the resurrection when we shall put on immortality ...
1 Cor 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
We are not yet "incorruptible" or "immortal"(aphtharsia/athanasia), but we already have "the life of the age"(aionios zoe).
When we are resurrected we will put on incorruption and immortality, but while we still live in this corruptible flesh we do not have incorruption or immortality, though we do have the life of the age, which is the abundant life of being quickened by the spirit of Christ, knowing Christ and his father who sent him, and being resurrected to share in his reign during the millennium.
The fact is that the Christians of the eastern Churches, who spoke koine Greek as their native language, understood this when they read the Greek scriptures, and that is why the vast majority of the Greek speaking Christians of the early church during the first 5 centuries after the death of Christ believed in and taught the restitution of all things, otherwise know as the "apocatastasis", or what is known today as the doctrine of "universal reconciliation" or "universal salvation" ...
Eternal Torture did not become the orthodox teaching of the church until after Rome made Christianity the state religion, when the western Latin speaking Churches and the catechetical school of Carthage took over Christendom and fully interpolated the pagan concept of eternal torture into the Christian faith, and especially after Jerome translated the Greek scriptures into the Latin Vulgate, at which time he chose to translate "aion" and its adjective form aionios as both "seclorum" and "aeternum", or age and eternal in the English ...
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Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
"My Greek scholars are more reliable than yours"
