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Yes, I understood the personal stab, thanks. I've heard much worse, but the multiple question marks shows surprise. Why do you guys always start slinging personal stabs? Oh, that's right, God is in control and he made him do it. If you had free will, you could choose to be respectful like Jesus teaches, but I guess you have found the perfect excuse to do whatever you want.
It is telling that you show your approval by the thmbs-up.
People do have a choise over their actions. Jesus would not have given us instructions to live Godly lives and to love our neighbors if he intended to puppet master our every move and thought. You have free will to choose your words here, and God will NOT force you to disrespect other people. He wants you to treat others with respect, but sometimes people choose otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
Finn_Jarber has a point here. Why act this way? Do we want to be treated like that? If you want to win over Finn_Jarber, then surely the Spirit must abide before you. I keep trying to help him undertand my universalist views and teach him things and then I get undermined by the behavior of others that claim to be universalists.
I try not to take things so seriously ... A healthy sense of humor is divine.
That people believe those things, can accept them, and can profess to love the God who supposedly does them . . . says far more about the sorry state of their souls and understanding of Jesus' unambiguous agape love . . . than about unbelievers.
It was the God of the Bible that destroyed the world with a flood. It was the God of the Bible who destroyed Sodom and Gomorra. It was the God of the Bible who destroyed Pharaohs army in the Red Sea. And every event was to punish unbelievers. If there was no God of the Bible, there would be no Jesus. God reaches out to all. Yet when His creation spits in His face. Then they have chossen the way of the devil. Heaven will be filled with those who have repented of their sin, and love God. All the others who hate God and His laws. Will find themselves in Hell. Jesus is reaching out to everyone, yet few are reaching out to Him.
Rom 4:5 But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Do you see the phrase highlighted? The term "justifying", within the phrase, is being used in the present tense. Jesus IS justifying the ungodly right now, as I type this. This is what His resurrection proclaims (Rom 4:25).
The ungodly are not believers, but rather unbelievers that are working iniquity against Christ. They are the enemies of Christ. Just like you and I were when we we too were His enemies. And Christ IS justifying them now in their present state of ungodliness. Here is the Greek word ἀσεβής (ungodly) and what it means:
ἀσεβής
It means godless, without fear and reverence of God. It does not mean irreligious, but one who actively practices the opposite of what the fear of God demands.
The ungodly ones are not the saints spoken of to whom Paul addressed his letter:
Rom 1:7 to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ!
You have clearly told us that you do not believe in Him who justifies the ungodly. You've told us that the ungodly ones (the unbelievers) are not justified by Jesus, but rather will be cast into hell for eternity.
To illustrate this further, I'll use the example Paul gives us concerning the promise made to Abraham:
Gen 15:5 And He brought him outside and said, Look now at the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them. And He said to him, So shall your seed be.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in Jehovah. And He counted it to him for righteousness.
The truth of God's promise to Abraham was not conditional on Abraham believing it. That truth of God "So shall your seed be" stands alone on God's word, whether Abraham believed it or not.
In like manner, justification of the ungodly (including you and I) is also true. It stands on the merits of Christ alone who accomplished it for us. Those who believe, like Abraham, are imputed with His righteousness. Those who do not believe (unlike Abraham) are not imputed with His righteousness. Not yet anyway, but they too will also be called, regenerated and brought to faith by the Spirit of Christ. They too, in time, will also be imputed with the righteousness of Christ. And we know this will happen because Paul told us that those whom Christ justified (all the ungodly, all mankind for whom He died) are those whom He will also glorify:
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
I believe the New Living Translation gives us a better picture of
Romans 4:5.
"But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, (BUT BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH IN GOD WHO FORGIVES SINNERS).
Now did you miss that part? People who are forgiven, are people who place (THEIR FAITH IN GOD). God is not giving out blank checks. People who are forgiven are those who place their faith in God. Most of the World does not place their faith in God.
Also, if you believe that all are saved. Then when Jesus tells us that sinners who enter the fires of Hell. And their torment will be for ever and ever. Your belief would make Jesus statement a lie. Thus making Christ a liar. Your belief is truly a departure from the truth. And your belief requires you to ignore the clear teachings of Christ. It's a belief of patchwork. Trying to make your arguement by presenting some Scriptures, while ignoring the others.
I believe the New Living Translation gives us a better picture of
Romans 4:5.
"But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, (BUT BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH IN GOD WHO FORGIVES SINNERS).
Now did you miss that part? People who are forgiven, are people who place (THEIR FAITH IN GOD). God is not giving out blank checks. People who are forgiven are those who place their faith in God. Most of the World does not place their faith in God.
Also, if you believe that all are saved. Then when Jesus tells us that sinners who enter the fires of Hell. And their torment will be for ever and ever. Your belief would make Jesus statement a lie. Thus making Christ a liar. Your belief is truly a departure from the truth. And your belief requires you to ignore the clear teachings of Christ. It's a belief of patchwork. Trying to make your arguement by presenting some Scriptures, while ignoring the others.
Okay ... I have read a few of your posts now, and i decided to go ahead and post this information yet again.
The Greek word translated forever, eternital, everlasting, etc. in the bible is aionios, the adjective form of the noun aion.
If you had any knowledge of the Greek language, and had studied the Greek classics, you would know that the word aion means age, and always means age in the greek language wherever it is found in the greek classics.
The adjective form of aion means of/pertaining the age/ages, just like yearly means of/pertaining, to a year, and just like hourly means or/pertaining to an hour.
The word aion has a plural form, which by itself proves that aion does not mean eternal, or everlasting, or for ever. There are not mutliple everlastings, or multiple eternities, or multiple forevers ...
Also, the Greek phrase translated as "for ever and ever" in the poplular english translations is "eis tous aionas ton aionon" which when literally translated means "to the ages of ages".
It is important to note that in this phrase, the noun aion is, in both cases, in its plural form. So if aion really did mean eternity, then the translation should be, "to the eternities of eternities" ... And of course that makes absolutely no sense.
What is also important to understand here is that aion is a noun, while forever is an adverb. So translating "aionas ton aionon"(ages of ages) with the adverb forever and ever, is a completely fallacious translation, period.
You would do very well to study Koine Greek, before you start making arguments about which you apparently know very little.
Okay ... I have read a few of your posts now, and i decided to go ahead and post this information yet again.
The Greek word translated forever, eternital, everlasting, etc. in the bible is aionios, the adjective form of the noun aion.
If you had any knowledge of the Greek language, and had studied the Greek classics, you would know that the word aion means age, and always means age in the greek language wherever it is found in the greek classics.
The adjective form of aion means of/pertaining the age/ages, just like yearly means of/pertaining, to a year, and just like hourly means or/pertaining to an hour.
The word aion has a plural form, which by itself proves that aion does not mean eternal, or everlasting, or for ever. There are not mutliple everlastings, or multiple eternities, or multiple forevers ...
Also, the Greek phrase translated as "for ever and ever" in the poplular english translations is "eis tous aionas ton aionon" which when literally translated means "to the ages of ages".
It is important to note that in this phrase, the noun aion is, in both cases, in its plural form. So if aion really did mean eternity, then the translation should be, "to the eternities of eternities" ... And of course that makes absolutely no sense.
What is also important to understand here is that aion is a noun, while forever is an adverb. So translating "aionas ton aionon"(ages of ages) with the adverb forever and ever, is a completely fallacious translation, period.
You would do very well to study Koine Greek, before you start making arguments about which you apparently know very little.
Of course, now you would suggest that all Bible translations got it wrong. And only your spin on the Greek is correct. The leader of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Charles Taze Russell stated the same things. Only through his books can anyone find the truth of the Scriptures. The fact is, most translations still have forever and ever. And that is what was intended.
The problem your going to have, is getting anyone to believe that your narrow view of the Bibles wording has been misunderstood for 2,000 years. And now, only you, or your supporters got it right.
In Matthew 25:46 Jesus tells us. "(THEN THEY WILL GO AWAY TO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, BUT THE RIGHTEOUS TO ETERNAL LIFE."
Yet I suppose your spin on that verse might be.
(THEN THEY WILL GO AWAY TO TEMPORARY PUNISHMENT, BUT THE RIGHTEOUS TO TEMPORARY LIFE.) LOL
Boy is that comforting.
Now, do you accept the use of (ETERNAL LIFE) in that verse. While at the same time rejecting (ETERNAL PUNISHMENT) in the same verse? How will you play with these words? After all. Is not your doctrine far more important then God's clear teachings?
I believe the New Living Translation gives us a better picture of
Romans 4:5.
"But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, (BUT BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH IN GOD WHO FORGIVES SINNERS).
Now did you miss that part? People who are forgiven, are people who place (THEIR FAITH IN GOD). God is not giving out blank checks. People who are forgiven are those who place their faith in God.
Do you also believe this:
Ephesians 2:4-8 - 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Also this: Romans 9-15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
These verses say that until God gives the gift to believe one will not, it is All in His timing as to when each WILL believe
Of course, now you would suggest that all Bible translations got it wrong. And only your spin on the Greek is correct. The leader of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Charles Taze Russell stated the same things. Only through his books can anyone find the truth of the Scriptures. The fact is, most translations still have forever and ever. And that is what was intended.
The problem your going to have, is getting anyone to believe that your narrow view of the Bibles wording has been misunderstood for 2,000 years. And now, only you, or your supporters got it right.
In Matthew 25:46 Jesus tells us. "(THEN THEY WILL GO AWAY TO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, BUT THE RIGHTEOUS TO ETERNAL LIFE."
Yet I suppose your spin on that verse might be.
(THEN THEY WILL GO AWAY TO TEMPORARY PUNISHMENT, BUT THE RIGHTEOUS TO TEMPORARY LIFE.) LOL
Boy is that comforting.
Now, do you accept the use of (ETERNAL LIFE) in that verse. While at the same time rejecting (ETERNAL PUNISHMENT) in the same verse? How will you play with these words? After all. Is not your doctrine far more important then God's clear teachings?
You are very confused, but that is natural, as you have been brainwashed by the doctrines of demons and the traditions of men which teach that God will torture most of humanity for ever.
The words in the Greek which are translated as "eternal life" are "aionios zoe", which when literally translated mean "life of the age". "Aionios Zoe" does not mean "eternal life".
Jesus tells us what the definition of "aionios zoe" is, and that is "to know Christ and his father who sent him".
"Aionios zoe" is to have life and to have it more abundantly now, and even more so in the kingdom age when we will rule with Christ.
Those who do not have it(life of the age - aionios zoe) are spiritually dying, and do not have the abundant life which believers have now because of the quickening of the spirit within them, and neither will they take part in the first resurrection and have life in the kingdom age and rule with Christ a thousand years.
We will one day have immortality and incorruption, but the Greek words for immortality and incorruption are not "aionios zoe", they are "aphtharsia" and "athanasia" ...
Romans 2:7
to those on the one hand who, by lives of persistent right-doing, are striving for glory, honour and immortality(aphtharsia), the Life of the Ages(aionios Zoe)
We see in the verse above that God gives "the life of the ages" to those who strive for glory and honor and immortality ...
Immortality is not the same thing as the life of the ages, though those who receive the life of the ages will also one day receive Immortality after the resurrection when we shall put on immortality ...
1 Cor 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
We are not yet "incorruptible" or "immortal"(aphtharsia/athanasia), but we already have "the life of the age"(aionios zoe).
When we are resurrected we will put on incorruption and immortality, but while we still live in this corruptible flesh we do not have incorruption or immortality, though we do have the life of the age, which is the abundant life of being quickened by the spirit of Christ, knowing Christ and his father who sent him, and being resurrected to share in his reign during the millennium.
The fact is that the Christians of the eastern Churches, who spoke koine Greek as their native language, understood this when they read the Greek scriptures, and that is why the vast majority of the Greek speaking Christians of the early church during the first 5 centuries after the death of Christ believed in and taught the restitution of all things, otherwise know as the "apocatastasis", or what is known today as the doctrine of "universal reconciliation" or "universal salvation" ...
Eternal Torture did not become the orthodox teaching of the church until after Rome made Christianity the state religion, when the western Latin speaking Churches and the catechetical school of Carthage took over Christendom and fully interpolated the pagan concept of eternal torture into the Christian faith, and especially after Jerome translated the Greek scriptures into the Latin Vulgate, at which time he chose to translate "aion" and its adjective form aionios as both "seclorum" and "aeternum", or age and eternal in the English ...
I don't expect you to even consider these things honestly with an open mind, much less to persuade you of the truth of them, it is apparent that you are one of those who desires the everlasting torture of most of humanity and think that it is a good and righteous thing, and or true divine justice ...
However, i believe that one day you will acknowledge the truth of these things, if not in this life, when every knee bows and when every tongue confesses that Christ is lord and all things are brought together in one in Christ, so that God will be all and in all.
Then you will remember what you believed and taught now about God torturing most of humanity for ever, and you will be ashamed.
One thing is for certain, when you stand before Christ at judgment, you will not be able to say no one ever told you about these things ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-30-2010 at 04:27 AM..
Yes....you are correct trettep....Sorry sir Finn....forgive me.
Tis true that the carnal man remains while still in the flesh.
Don't worry, it was a very mild insult, but it gave me an opportunity to prove that you do have a choise in matters. You can choose your words and your actions. Is God's desire that we are respectful? Yes, Jesus said so. Can we go against His desire? Yes we can, and we do all the time. Is God's desire that all men be saved? Yes. Is everyone saved? No, because we have the ability to go against His desire, and many do.
You are very confused, but that is natural, as you have been brainwashed by the doctrines of demons and the traditions of men which teach that God will torture most of humanity for ever.
The words in the Greek which are translated as "eternal life" are "aionios zoe", which when literally translated mean "life of the age". "Aionios Zoe" does not mean "eternal life".
Jesus tells us what the definition of "aionios zoe" is, and that is "to know Christ and his father who sent him".
"Aionios zoe" is to have life and to have it more abundantly now, and even more so in the kingdom age when we will rule with Christ.
Those who do not have it (life of the age - aionios zoe) are spiritually dying, and do not have the abundant life which believers have now because of the quickening of the spirit within them, and neither will they take part in the first resurrection and have life in the kingdom age and rule with Christ a thousand years.
We will one day have immortality and incorruption, but the Greek words for immortality and incorruption are not "aionios zoe", they are "aphtharsia" and "athanasia" ...
Romans 2:7
to those on the one hand who, by lives of persistent right-doing, are striving for glory, honour and immortality(aphtharsia), the Life of the Ages(aionios Zoe)
We see in the verse above that God gives "the life of the ages" to those who strive for glory and honor and immortality ...
Immortality is not the same thing as the life of the ages, though those who receive the life of the ages will also one day receive Immortality after the resurrection when we shall put on immortality ...
1 Cor 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
We are not yet "incorruptible" or "immortal"(aphtharsia/athanasia), but we already have "the life of the age"(aionios zoe).
When we are resurrected we will put on incorruption and immortality, but while we still live in this corruptible flesh we do not have incorruption or immortality, though we do have the life of the age, which is the abundant life of being quickened by the spirit of Christ, knowing Christ and his father who sent him, and being resurrected to share in his reign during the millennium.
The fact is that the Christians of the eastern Churches, who spoke koine Greek as their native language, understood this when they read the Greek scriptures, and that is why the vast majority of the Greek speaking Christians of the early church during the first 5 centuries after the death of Christ believed in and taught the restitution of all things, otherwise know as the "apocatastasis", or what is known today as the doctrine of "universal reconciliation" or "universal salvation" ...
Eternal Torture did not become the orthodox teaching of the church until after Rome made Christianity the state religion, when the western Latin speaking Churches and the catechetical school of Carthage took over Christendom and fully interpolated the pagan concept of eternal torture into the Christian faith, and especially after Jerome translated the Greek scriptures into the Latin Vulgate, at which time he chose to translate "aion" and its adjective form aionios as both "seclorum" and "aeternum", or age and eternal in the English ...
I don't expect you to even consider these things honestly with an open mind, much less to persuade you of the truth of them, it is apparent that you are one of those who desires the everlasting torture of most of humanity and think that it is a good and righteous thing, and or true divine justice ...
However, i believe that one day you will acknowledge the truth of these things, if not in this life, when every knee bows and when every tongue confesses that Christ is lord and all things are brought together in one in Christ, so that God will be all and in all.
Then you will remember what you believed and taught now about God torturing most of humanity for ever, and you will be ashamed.
One thing is for certain, when you stand before Christ at judgment, you will not be able to say no one ever told you about these things ...
I said this before, but I think it's appropriate to repeat it since several more members are "on board."
Simply put, the Scriptures do not take up the philosophical concept of eternity,
but rather speak of eons and that which pertains to them.
No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.
Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest. BIBLICAL CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
Also see AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS An Analytical Study of Words
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)
Last edited by rodgertutt; 11-30-2010 at 05:33 AM..
Reason: spacing
I try not to take things so seriously ... A healthy sense of humor is divine.
We should always be concerned about our brother. It isn't a matter of taking something seriously. It is about God's Law to love others above ourselves. If we wouldn't want it done unto us then we should not do it unto others.
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6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 
God’s plan for the ages of time
