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I have to ask you, do you honestly desire to understand how and why we think the doctrine of universal salvation is biblical truth? Or do you only want to defend eternal torment because you think it is right and it is the truth?
Generally speaking, wouldn't it be better for all if universal salvation were true? Would you want it to be true? Isn't it worth investigating it honestly? Because it appears you are not honestly considering what has been said in these discussions - you keep repeating the same old questions that have been long answered. ie. if eternal punishment isn't 'eternal', then neither is the life...
Yes you are confused about it, because Jesus did not speak about eternal life. You are reading English words. Jesus did not speak English. He spoke about aionios zoe - which means living life abundantly, knowing God (as explained previously). It is referring to ages or pertaining through ages.
He specified two ages for a reason. Would it make sense to specifically say "this age" and "next age" in the same sentence if he meant the same age? You have been taught to always respond the same way to the question of 'eternal', but when you put things in context, you'll see it doesn't make any sense most the time.
To decribe "this age", the word "kairos" is used, which is exactly that: a limited amount of time, while "aionios" is :
without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
I have to ask you, do you honestly desire to understand how and why we think the doctrine of universal salvation is biblical truth? Or do you only want to defend eternal torment because you think it is right and it is the truth?
I already understand it, and the more I study it and the more I hear people scratch and scrape for all kinds of off the wall explanations to defend it, the more convinced I am that it is not the truth. I am sorry, but there is nothing more that can be said to convince me that it is the truth. For over a year I have been listening to many people trying to explain it and no one has come anywhere near to convincing me of it. There is simply too much proof in the Bible against it. The Bible repeats 200 times that salvation is through faith, and that without faith one cannot be saved, so one or two verses with out of context interpreptions aren't going to change the truth.
Wouldn't it be better? That's just the thing. UR was created to be a more convenient religion for those who are unable to accept the truth. You know what would be better? It would be better if we were born into heaven with eternal lives and in presence of Jesus. That would be better, but I am not going to create a religion to support it, because it is not the truth. No, it is not about what you or I desire. If that was the case, there would be no one truth, but many, one for each person. It does not work that way.
Millions of Muslims think that Christians are going to suffer forever in hell. "Non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished in hell eternally"
quoted from Islamic Belief about the Afterlife The Afterlife in Islam - ReligionFacts
And as everyone on this forum knows, millions of ET Christians think that Muslims are going to suffer forever in hell.
I don't need to quote any websites, right?
In my opinion, the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe that God will let anyone suffer forever and not have a horrific nervous breakdown thinking about it.
I sure did; mine was for twelve years (1966-78). I'm 72 now.
So did Charles Slagle.
His wonderful testimony of how he was able to recover can be read here. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST absolute assurance in jesus christ
It's introduction reads like this "If you have been devastated by spiritual abuse or fear of God’s hopeless abandonment, this book will change your life."
And I am glad to say that there is a lot of evidence that reading Charle's testimony/exposition has changed many lives.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 11-30-2010 at 11:29 AM..
Reason: spelling
Of course if that were true. Jesus would not be speaking of non believers going into (ETERNAL PUNISHMENT). Your belief does not square with the Scripture.
Tell me, when does (ETERNAL PUNISHMENT) suddenly become only a temporary condition?
Anyone can pull verses out of context. However Ephesians 2:4-8 is adressing those who have been saved by grace. And that requires an act of faith.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son. (THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, BUT WILL HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.)
And then Scripture makes the above statement even more clear.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son (SHALL NOT SEE LIFE but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 10:9 tells us the requirement for salvation.
That if thou shalt confess with they mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, (THOU SHALT BE SAVED.)
And those who refuse to do this? They will enter Eternal Punishment. Jesus tells you Eternal Punishment. Do you believe Jesus? Or do you believe someone else?
As we can see, Campbell34 is simply another traditional fundamentalist who refuses to even acknowledge any other information than that with which he has been programmed to believe by the traditions of men.
As many of us have already provided multiple arguments which he refuses to even acknowledge in order to debate the facts, but he instead simply repeats his infernal doctrine of ET without taking the time to actually deal with the arguments which he is obviously to brainwashed to even try to understand.
I am sorry, but there is nothing more that can be said to convince me that it is the truth. For over a year I have been listening to many people trying to explain it and no one has come anywhere near to convincing me of it.
IMO, it's just like I said.
It comes down to the stalemate of "my Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars."
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve of AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS An Analytical Study of Words
If you think like the Muslims do that it glorifies God more to let Christians suffer forever, or annihilate non-Christians like the Christian ANers do, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 11-30-2010 at 11:32 AM..
I already understand it, and the more I study it and the more I hear people scratch and scrape for all kinds of off the wall explanations to defend it, the more convinced I am that it is not the truth. I am sorry, but there is nothing more that can be said to convince me that it is the truth. For over a year I have been listening to many people trying to explain it and no one has come anywhere near to convincing me of it. There is simply too much proof in the Bible against it. The Bible repeats 200 times that salvation is through faith, and that without faith one cannot be saved, so one or two verses with out of context interpreptions aren't going to change the truth.
Wouldn't it be better? That's just the thing. UR was created to be a more convenient religion for those who are unable to accept the truth. You know what would be better? It would be better if we were born into heaven with eternal lives and in presence of Jesus. That would be better, but I am not going to create a religion to support it, because it is not the truth. No, it is not about what you or I desire. If that was the case, there would be no one truth, but many, one for each person. It does not work that way.
And the more you write Finn, the more it is obvious that you desire most of humanity, and anyone who does not believe the way that you do, to be tortured for ever ...
The thought of countless billions of humans being tortured for ever obviously doesn't bother you in the slightest. Instead, you obviously believe it is a good thing, and that you in truth do not have the slightest understanding of what it means to love your neighbor, much less what it means to love your enemies.
I already understand it, and the more I study it and the more I hear people scratch and scrape for all kinds of off the wall explanations to defend it, the more convinced I am that it is not the truth. I am sorry, but there is nothing more that can be said to convince me that it is the truth. For over a year I have been listening to many people trying to explain it and no one has come anywhere near to convincing me of it. There is simply too much proof in the Bible against it. The Bible repeats 200 times that salvation is through faith, and that without faith one cannot be saved, so one or two verses with out of context interpreptions aren't going to change the truth.
Wouldn't it be better? That's just the thing. UR was created to be a more convenient religion for those who are unable to accept the truth. You know what would be better? It would be better if we were born into heaven with eternal lives and in presence of Jesus. That would be better, but I am not going to create a religion to support it, because it is not the truth. No, it is not about what you or I desire. If that was the case, there would be no one truth, but many, one for each person. It does not work that way.
Finn, I'm not saying we should create a religion to support whatever we would like. Is that what you think UR is? Then you don't understand the concept.
I know you don't understand UR, because if you did, you would believe it. If you did understand UR, you wouldn't keep raising the same questions, questions that have already been answered ad nauseum.
What I am saying is if you desire that eternal torment be true, then you will hold onto contradictions and find any excuse to not understand UR. From my perspective it appears you desire that eternal torment is true, even though it is a lie. Anyway, this is moot, because you would say the same about me, except in relation to UR.
So to that I will echo what Rodger said above. In effect it comes down to "my Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars" - so in that case what view gives more glory to God?
Is it more glorious that most of His creation burn forever in eternal torture?
Or is it more glorious that all of His creation be restored and reconciled?
That is why I ask what you desire, because that will impact what you are willing to let yourself understand. Examine your heart. Answer honestly. Do you desire that all mankind be saved?
He specified two ages for a reason. Would it make sense to specifically say "this age" and "next age" in the same sentence if he meant the same age? You have been taught to always respond the same way to the question of 'eternal', but when you put things in context, you'll see it doesn't make any sense most the time.
I'm not sure what you think you have proven here. There are more than two ages to come.
aionios zoe makes sense in every verse it is used instead of "eternal life". Furthermore the word 'eternal' DOES NOT make sense in every verse where it is used.
Furthermore aionios is an adjective pertaining to aions - aions are a limited time - as this has been shown to you time and time again, but you cannot acknowledge it.
Quote:
To decribe "this age", the word "kairos" is used, which is exactly that: a limited amount of time, while "aionios" is :
without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
without beginning
without end, never to cease, everlasting
The word "kairos" means "time" I believe.
Yes this is how aionios was translated in the KJV familiy of bibles. But as has been shown, that translation is WRONG.
1. People are unwilling to contemplate that the words 'eternal' and 'hell' are not accurate translations - even though this can be proven through simple word study.
2. People are unwilling to contemplate that they DO NOT have free will - even though it can be proven logically and through the laws of nature that they cannot have free will - everything that happens has been caused to happen - this is the law of cause and effect. People prefer to believe they are in control and God is not.
3. Pride - people prefer to believe that they will 'make it' while others 'will not'. People prefer to believe that they were smart or lucky enough to make the right choice, while others are not afforded this opportunity. This is simply the carnal nature ruling.
In fact scripture says that the carnal cannot understand the spiritual. It is carnal reasoning that comes up with the concept that God, who is love, allows or purposes most of His creation to be tormented forever.
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The testimony of charles slagle
but the wrath of God abideth on him.
What it comes down to
