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Finn....sorry it took so long to get back to you. Been busy.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Yes, this is very true, and I never argued this.
Yes, you ARE arguing it, and I will show you where later. But first you state…
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And in Jeromiah God said he spoke to them, but they did not listen.
As I keep saying, they NEVER listened, it was NOT GIVEN to them to “hear and understand” what God was saying. Your argument would hold some weight if, say, 1000 of them did NOT listen (as you say) and, say, 20 of them DID “INDEED” listen (apart from the influence of God). But that never happened, now did it?
Yes, in Jeremiah it states many “If thou obey…..BUT if NOT” choices. But notice that before (that is BEFORE) “ANY” of these choices are set forth in the book we read this…..
Jer 1:14-15 Then the LORD said unto me, Out of the north an evil shall break forth upon all the inhabitants of the land.For, lo, I will call all the families of the kingdoms of the north, saith the LORD; and they shall come, and they shall set every one his throne at the entering of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all the walls thereof round about, and against all the cities of Judah. (out of north... Jer_4:6; Jer_6:1, Jer_6:22; Jer_10:22; Jer_25:9; Eze_26:7)
Notice here a few things. One being, that God “calls” the enemy forth against Jerusalem (yet another thing God controls). Another, more important to my point, being, that it shows NO choices here (not even in the whole chapter). It just FLAT OUT TELLS us what IS GOING to happen. No….IF’s, and’s, or BUT’s about it. It WILL happen!! Again, God effectively TELLS Jeremiah and US what they will choose BEFORE they choose it. This is easy for God to do simply because ALL are SINNERS, so there is no “good choice” in a sinner.
Jer 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
Heck, at one point God basically even says “if you find ONE good man in Jerusalem, then I will pardon it”…
Jer 5:1 Run ye to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, and see now, and know, and seek in the broad places thereof, if ye can find a man, if there be any that executeth judgment, that seeketh the truth; and I will pardon it.
And, yes, we repeatedly see that they didn’t “hear, incline the ear, listen, answer, or understand” in the book (Jer 5:21, 6:19, 13:11, 17:23, 19:15… to list a few). Other places in scripture we see this as well…
Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Seeing this, if I asked you “WHY?” they did not “hear, listen, answer, etc.”, then you would say that they CHOSE to “REFUSE” with their own free will. There are a few things that you are not “seeing and understanding” here though. One is that, when left to themselves, they will ALWAYS refuse….
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do ALWAYS resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Isa 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened (opened by WHOM??): for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor FROM THE WOMB.
But, your LORD tells you the whole reason WHY they can’t EVER “hear or understand” Him.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath GIVEN THEM the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hearunto this day.
Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD hath NOT GIVEN YOU an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
So, to recap, from THEN till and through "UNTO THIS DAY", they will resist (until God guides them otherwise).
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These are examples of God drawing Israel to Himself, but they rejected Him. God desires people to come to Him, and he draws them to Himself, but people do not listen to His calling. God's attempt to gather Israel was the touch of God you talk about, but they rejected it.
No…these are examples of what people will ALWAYS do, UNLESS God guides, influences, steers, TOUCHES, etc. them to CHOOSE Him in the first place. So these are NOT, as you say, the “touching” I was talking about. Jeremiah was touched (NOT by choice mind you), but people were’nt.
This is what we have been arguing about all along Finn. The act of God giving Man a “choice” is NOT “drawing” Man. This shows that you do not agree with my statement of “Without the Touch of God, we WILL always fail”.
If God gives an UN-guided man a choice, then He is showing us WHAT he is, by the choice that he will ALWAYS make. God knows what he is “always” going to choose, BY what he is….
Isa 48:3-5 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass. Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass; I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. (“freewill” is just as much an idol, is it not??)
Jer 7:25-27Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them: Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck (Gk: Stiffnecked): they did worse than their fathers. Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee.
Notice that it Jer 7:27 says “they WILL NOT” hearken and “they WILL NOT” answer. It does NOT say that they “might or might NOT”, it says they “WILL NOT”…..PERIOD!!
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It is not that God blocks His own calling,….
Assuming by your word “calling” here to mean giving man an option, then…. OH….to the contrary….YES he does!!! As already stated in Rom 11:8 and Deu 29:4, UNLESS God “GIVES” them the ability to see/hear/understand, then they will NOT hear/see. See also….
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isa 29:10-11 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath CLOSED YOUR EYES: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
Psa 69:23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; …..
Mat 13:11+13 “…..Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, butto them it is NOT GIVEN……….they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
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…. and then punish people for not hearing it. What would be wicked.
IMO, it is your belief, in this subject (and others), that causes you to conclude things in this manner. I don’t blame you though, I used to believe the same things. I am interested what you think these verses mean though. These, and others, I suspect, are what I called “back-burner” verses to ones such as yourself. They just do not agree with a “freewill” theology.
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When he calls people, He wants us to come. God chooses the date and time of His calling, and when it happens it is up to us to either reject it or accept it. This is evidenced all over the Bible,….
What is “evidenced” throughout the bible, is that God is in Control of ALL things. Believe me, all the evidence in the bible shows that, if it were “up to us”, as you say, then we would ALWAYS reject it, and NEVER accept it. I have been attempting to show you this all along.
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….like in the parable of the wedding, where God invited Israel to His wedding, but they rejected the invitation. Then He invited the gentiles, and many came, but some showed up not believing, and those were thrown out.
I can go very deep into this if you would like, but for a hint, looking at the last verse in the parable, there is something very telling.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Your belief forces this verse to read “but few are CHOOSING”. Christ says we don’t choose Him…
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you….
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Jesus said we must make every effort to take the narrow gate, and He says that many take the wide road, and it is the road to destruction.
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Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
This, in a nutshell, is describing what we have been talking about all along. Christ, flat out, tells you here that “they will try….and NOT BE ABLE” (these are the ‘called’ in Joh 15:16). We are unable to do ANYTHING without Him (the ‘chosen’, not CHOOSING, ones enter). There is something pretty cool in the scriptures, that few people see. Notice that God speaks to His “chosen” (touched, guided, etc.) in a more, matter of fact way, then He does with the ‘called’. I can write MUCH MUCH on this, it is very eye opening. A short example: Notice how God spoke to Jeremiah (“they wont”….”it WILL happen”…etc). That being totally different then what He commanded to be spoken to the people (“if thou….but if thou not”).
The bottom line Finn, is that He is in control. There are the ‘called’ and there are the ‘chosen’ (two different groups of people here). You and I are exactly where He wants us at this time.
Well, Jesus said those who hate Him also hate God:
Joh 15:23 `He who is hating me, doth hate also my Father;
You're really starting to freak me out HotInAz. You do believe that Jesus IS Jehovah God manifested in the flesh, right? One cannot hate Jesus and love God at the same time. You do believe this, right?
Of course, as would I. You and I are also obligated to love and protect our neighbors, such as the widow who lives next door. Right?
Sure Paul did. He knew himself well:
Rom 1:28 And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;
Rom 1:29 having been filled with all unrighteousness, whoredom, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil dispositions; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 evil-speakers, God-haters, insulting, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 unintelligent, faithless, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 who the righteous judgment of God having known--that those practising such things are worthy of death--not only do them, but also have delight with those practising them.
Paul (then Saul) knew of these "works" within himself, all to well. As do all of us before being born of the Spirit.
Saul neither knew Jesus nor was he a supporter of those who did:
Act 9:5 And he said, `Who art thou, Lord?' and the Lord said, `I am Jesus whom thou dost persecute; hard for thee at the pricks to kick;'
Gal 1:13 for ye did hear of my behaviour once in Judaism, that exceedingly I was persecuting the assembly of God, and wasting it,
And here is what Jesus said about this type of persecution:
Joh 7:7 the world is not able to hate you, but me it doth hate, because I testify concerning it that its works are evil.
Joh 15:23 `He who is hating me, doth hate also my Father;
Joh 16:2 out of the synagogues they will put you; but an hour doth come, that every one who hath killed you, may think to offer service unto God;
Joh 16:3 and these things they will do to you, because they did not know the Father, nor me.
Psa 25:19 See my enemies, for they have been many, And with violent hatred they have hated me.
You indicated that God does not love all people:
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 Let me get this straight, are you saying that God does not love all people?
Here is your response to the question:
That is EXACTLY what I am saying. Is it any clearer to you? Here are some verses for you to study:
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I believe God does love all people, including those like Saul, as well as you and I, who worked iniquity (evil works) before coming to faith. Paul tells us that we were God's enemy when He reconciled us to Himself:
Col 1:21 And you--once being alienated, and enemies in the mind, in the evil works, yet now did he reconcile,
You mean just like God did with Saul, as well as you and I?
Believe me, all the evidence in the bible shows that, if it were “up to us”, as you say, then we would ALWAYS reject it, and NEVER accept it.
You can keep repeating it, but it won't make it true. When God says "Turn to me, and be saved", he means that you need to turn to Him. When he says "seek the narrow gate, because only a few find it", he actually means that you should seek it. When He says "knock", you should knock. When he says "believe", you should believe. You may not believe it, but you do have a part in the picture. When Jesus said he tried to gather Israel, he was actually telling them to turn to Him, but they didn't.
I never said everything is up to us. I already told you that God draws us, (He says He draws everyone at some point) and plants the seed, and He does the saving, but our part is to accept the offer. Before the calling there is nothing we can do. God does not send out invitations to His wedding for nothing. He wants us to accept the invitation. He is calling millions of people, and many reject it. Some are called for years, and reject, but eventually they accept Him. Unfortunately many die before accepting Him, and those people are lost forever.
Once God calls you and plants the seed, then your heart is open and the choise is yours. Harden your heart, and the seed will not be able to penetrate. Keep living in sin, and the seed will not see sunlight, but if you choose Him, the seed will find its root.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 11-29-2010 at 11:54 AM..
No, no, and no. ETer's don't dislike being told that God justifies the ungodly by Christ alone. What we dislike is when people such as yourself forget to mention that such justification only comes to the (UNGODLY) when they (PERSONALLY ACCEPT) Christ as their LORD and saviour. You would have everyone believe God gives a blank check to all. You would have all believe that no one has to sign off on that check. And when Jesus tells us that the non believers will enter the eternal flames of Hell prepared for the Devil and his angels. You would have us believe that Jesus was lying to us. Because according to you. Everyone is saved. Which according to Jesus is a lie. Jesus tells us, that wide is the gate that leads to destruction and (MANY) their be that enter it. And then He tells us that narrow is the way that leads to eternal life (AND FEW THEIR BE) that find it. In order to believe what you do. Such a belif requires us to believe that the Jesus Christ of the New Testament is a bold faced liar. YOUR SAYING, we cannot believe Christs own words. And if you reject Christ words of the Scriptures, then the only belief left are created doctrines of devils. And such a doctrine, is what you are pushing here. Your like the snake in the garden. Telling Eve surly you can eat from this tree. You will not experience death because of your actions. You don't have to believe what the God of the Bible told you.
When the Jesus Christ of the New Testament tells us that non believers will enter the eternal flames prepared for the Devil and his angels. Do you believe that the Jesus of the New Testament was telling us the truth? Or do you believe He was lying to us? It's a simple question, which only requires a simple answer.
LOL...I knew Rom 4:5 would upset you. That scripture will always find those who do not believe it is Christ alone that justifies them at the cross. As your post illustrates, those who have never believed the Gospel will fight against it's truth. Those who believe that it is Christ alone who justifies them are imputed with His righteousness. This truth is also declared in Rom 4:5 as well as Rom 4:23-25.
There are really too many issues in your post to discuss here...And I'm not sure you really want to hear my responses...LOL
So, may I offer you a suggestion?
Call on the name of Yeshua (Jesus) in prayer (Rom 10:13) and ask Him to show you what He alone accomplished for you in His life, death and resurrection. Ask His Spirit to purge you of whatever false doctrines and teachings of men that you hold to, and to create a new heart within you that will believe, honor and follow what He alone speaks.
May I offer one other suggestion that helped me? Lay aside your modern bible translations (paraphrases) and use two or three good Greek/English and Hebrew/English interlinears (with parsing helps if applicable) and have at least two lexicons to look up word meanings and similar occurrences throughout the scriptures. It also helps to put your commentaries away, turnoff your morning drive gospel radio show and make it a point to verify everything your pastor proclaims from the pulpit.
But everyone who enters the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it?
And yet Scripture tells us in Revelation 14:9-11
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDETH UP FOR EVER AND EVER: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT,) who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
L. Ray Smith can only believe what he does by simply ignoring the clear teachings of the Bible. He is more like a cult leader. If the Bible tells you that they will be tormented for ever and ever. L. Ray Smith will tell you this is not true. And that is because he only believes the passages that support his personal position. Following such a person will only lead you into spiritual darkness. And that is because he does not believe the words of Jesus Christ.
When Scripture clearly tells you (FOR EVER AND EVER). It is not talking about a temporary condition. And only by ignoring or playing with Scripture could someone believe such a thing.
L. Ray Smith and his new teachings are what Scripture has already warned us about. The time will come when men will not endure sound doctrine, but will turn their ears away from the truth. His teachings do not agree with what Christ taught, nor do the agree with the Bible in general.
But everyone who enters the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it?
And yet Scripture tells us in Revelation 14:9-11
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDETH UP FOR EVER AND EVER: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT,) who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
L. Ray Smith can only believe what he does by simply ignoring the clear teachings of the Bible. He is more like a cult leader. If the Bible tells you that they will be tormented for ever and ever. L. Ray Smith will tell you this is not true. And that is because he only believes the passages that support his personal position. Following such a person will only lead you into spiritual darkness. And that is because he does not believe the words of Jesus Christ.
When Scripture clearly tells you (FOR EVER AND EVER). It is not talking about a temporary condition. And only by ignoring or playing with Scripture could someone believe such a thing.
L. Ray Smith and his new teachings are what Scripture has already warned us about. The time will come when men will not endure sound doctrine, but will turn their ears away from the truth. His teachings do not agree with what Christ taught, nor do the agree with the Bible in general.
Oh shoot...."now you started it".....here we go again.
Just a fair warning, but hey, a few questions.
How long have you been on this site?
Have you ever debated against UR before?
LOL...I knew Rom 4:5 would upset you. That scripture will always find those who do not believe it is Christ alone that justifies them at the cross. As your post illustrates, those who have never believed the Gospel will fight against it's truth. Those who believe that it is Christ alone who justifies them are imputed with His righteousness. This truth is also declared in Rom 4:5 as well as Rom 4:23-25.
There are really too many issues in your post to discuss here...And I'm not sure you really want to hear my responses...LOL
So, may I offer you a suggestion?
Call on the name of Yeshua (Jesus) in prayer (Rom 10:13) and ask Him to show you what He alone accomplished for you in His life, death and resurrection. Ask His Spirit to purge you of whatever false doctrines and teachings of men that you hold to, and to create a new heart within you that will believe, honor and follow what He alone speaks.
May I offer one other suggestion that helped me? Lay aside your modern bible translations (paraphrases) and use two or three good Greek/English and Hebrew/English interlinears (with parsing helps if applicable) and have at least two lexicons to look up word meanings and similar occurrences throughout the scriptures. It also helps to put your commentaries away, turnoff your morning drive gospel radio show and make it a point to verify everything your pastor proclaims from the pulpit.
I know it helped me, perhaps you also.
Years ago God spoke to me in the night. It was a voice I could clearly understand. And He personally told me that if I continued to follow Him He would take care of me. He also told me He loved me. The same doctrine I followed then, I follow today. And I see no reason to ignore God's Biblical Words, or the Words He spoke to me that night. When Scripture tells us that the unsaved will be tormented with fire, and they will have no rest (FOR EVER AND EVER). I believe the Scriptures over any new doctrine that is now being pushed. And I don't have a pastor, because I don't even go to church because of my job. My faith is not built on some weak christian church. I have personally had numerous encounters with the God of the Bible. And the stories I could tell you, are not the kind you would find in such watered down places of worship. I have had encounters with demons, and I have seen the victory in Christ.
Romans 4:5 does not upset me at all. It speaks the truth. Yet it adresses only those, (WHO BELIEVE). And that's the difference. Christ tells you non believers will be cast into hell. And they will have no rest day or night. (I BELIEVE THAT.) God tells us their torment will be for ever and ever. (I BELIEVE THAT.) The God of the Bible is not speaking of some kind of temporary condition here. For ever and ever, means just that. It really all comes down to this. Do you believe the very words of Christ found in the Scripture? Or do you ignore His words, and believe that, "for ever and ever", is some how only a temporary condition. Because if you can change, "for ever and ever" into some kind of temporary condition. Then you can change anything in Scripture. And it's words become meaningless. Scripture now becomes whatever you want it to mean. And that will only lead you down the road to error.
Years ago God spoke to me in the night. It was a voice I could clearly understand. And He personally told me that if I continued to follow Him He would take care of me. He also told me He loved me. The same doctrine I followed then, I follow today. And I see no reason to ignore God's Biblical Words, or the Words He spoke to me that night. When Scripture tells us that the unsaved will be tormented with fire, and they will have no rest (FOR EVER AND EVER). I believe the Scriptures over any new doctrine that is now being pushed. And I don't have a pastor, because I don't even go to church because of my job. My faith is not built on some weak christian church. I have personally had numerous encounters with the God of the Bible. And the stories I could tell you, are not the kind you would find in such watered down places of worship. I have had encounters with demons, and I have seen the victory in Christ.
Romans 4:5 does not upset me at all. It speaks the truth. Yet it adresses only those, (WHO BELIEVE). And that's the difference. Christ tells you non believers will be cast into hell. And they will have no rest day or night. (I BELIEVE THAT.) God tells us their torment will be for ever and ever. (I BELIEVE THAT.) The God of the Bible is not speaking of some kind of temporary condition here. For ever and ever, means just that. It really all comes down to this. Do you believe the very words of Christ found in the Scripture? Or do you ignore His words, and believe that, "for ever and ever", is some how only a temporary condition. Because if you can change, "for ever and ever" into some kind of temporary condition. Then you can change anything in Scripture. And it's words become meaningless. Scripture now becomes whatever you want it to mean. And that will only lead you down the road to error.
That people believe those things, can accept them, and can profess to love the God who supposedly does them . . . says far more about the sorry state of their souls and understanding of Jesus' unambiguous agape love . . . than about unbelievers.
(AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDETH UP FOR EVER AND EVER: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT,) who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
When Scripture clearly tells you (FOR EVER AND EVER). It is not talking about a temporary condition. And only by ignoring or playing with Scripture could someone believe such a thing.
The popular version of the Bible that you are using tells you "for ever and ever."
Try using the Concordant Literal, or Young's Literal, or Rotherham's Emphasised, or Bullinger's Companion Bible's footnotes, or Wilson's Diaglot, or Clementon's, or Scarlett's, or Weymouth's original text. These are a few of the better known ones.
Here is a link to many more An Analytical Study of Words - Undivided Version(not the same link as the above one by the same name)
You didn't even read my other post that I asked you to read did you Campbell?
A comparison of Rev. 11:14, 15 with I Cor. 15:27, 28 makes it clear that the expression the "eons of the eons" does not mean an endless succession of eons. Christ reigns for "the eons of the eons" after which He delivers up the Kingdom to the Father and Himself becomes subject that God may be all in all.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 11-29-2010 at 01:44 PM..
Reason: spacing
L. Ray Smith can only believe what he does by simply ignoring the clear teachings of the Bible. He is more like a cult leader. If the Bible tells you that they will be tormented for ever and ever. L. Ray Smith will tell you this is not true. And that is because he only believes the passages that support his personal position. Following such a person will only lead you into spiritual darkness. And that is because he does not believe the words of Jesus Christ.
You clearly have not read L. Ray Smith's writings if this is what you think they are about.
Universal salvation is supported 100% in the bible. No one is tormented forever and ever...
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unto this day.
The eons of the eons - a limited period of time
