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Old 04-07-2011, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,156,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
...
I have to disagree with your definition of what salvation is. The bible doesn't teach that Salvation is to receive Eternal Life and Immortality. Christians work or do good deeds out of what God and Jesus has done for them in their lives.
Sure it does. I showed that it did. To be saved means to no longer be unsaved. Obviously, if you have Eternal Life and Immortality, you are no longer unsaved.

Quote:
Salvation is being saved from the righteous judgment of God upon the sinner
Judgement is the corrective work of God.

Quote:
A lot of people think that salvation means being saved from yourself or the devil. But that is not the correct interpretation. All who have sinned against God are under the judgment of God, and that means YOU, ME, ALL OF US. This judgment is known as damnation where God condemns to eternal hell all those who have offended Him by breaking His Law.

This does not mean that God is unfair, and this is where people think that they have to some how keep doing good deeds in order to be fairly selected for Salvation----hint hint WORKS SALVATION. God is holy, AND HE EXPECTS US TO BE HOLY AS WELL. In order for us to be holy, we have to become born again, where our old nature has died, and we have become new creations or creatures through our faith in Jesus Christ. Now our holiness just doesn't happen by osmosis, and I agree that we must WORK AT BECOMING HOLY BY studying God's word, meditating on His Word, willing over to God any sins, bad thoughts, bad habits that are not pleasing to God, and simply trusting solely on Jesus with the Holy Spirit's help to live as humanly holy as we can live until we die.

With that said, God must punish the sinner. But, He has provided a way of escape so that people will not face His righteous judgment. This means that God is both holy and loving. He must manifest each quality equally. So, being saved from the wrath of God is called salvation.

Salvation is found ONLY in Jesus NOT ANYONE ELSE INCLUDING OURSELVES AS SOME WOULD LIKE TO THINK THAT THEY CAN DO THROUGH THEIR DEEDS OR WORKS. Jesus, who is God in flesh (John 1:1,14), and who died for our sins and rose from the dead. 1 Cor. 15:1-4 says...

"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"

This is how salvation works: All of us have sinned against God and deserve judgment. But Jesus never sinned (1 Pet. 2:22). He lived the Law of God perfectly. In this He has a perfectly righteous standing before God. When the corrupt Jewish leaders forced Rome's hand into crucifying Jesus, God used this crucifixion as the means to place the sins of the world upon Jesus (1 Pet. 2:24; 1 John 2:2). This is when Jesus became sin on our behalf. So even when we mess up, we can have the penalty of sin washed away or forgiven every time we do stumble and fall. Thank God for His Grace and Mercy that brought me through.
Let me ask you then, if I must have Faith to be saved, who gives me the Faith to be saved?
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Old 04-08-2011, 12:48 AM
 
3,344 posts, read 5,639,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Sure it does. I showed that it did. To be saved means to no longer be unsaved. Obviously, if you have Eternal Life and Immortality, you are no longer unsaved.



Judgement is the corrective work of God.



Let me ask you then, if I must have Faith to be saved, who gives me the Faith to be saved?
God gives us faith through his Son. In fact, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). Paul shows how faith comes when he says: "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:13,14).

It is necessary for the gospel of Christ to be preached so that sinners can believe and be saved. Where the gospel has not gone, people have not heard, and no one has been saved. This is the reason we must preach the gospel to every person, in every nation, in the whole world (Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 16:15,16; Luke 24:46, 47).
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Old 04-08-2011, 12:49 AM
 
3,344 posts, read 5,639,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
From the website, The Distinction Between Justification and Sanctification:

Justification Is the judicial act of God alone, alone outside the sinner; but in Christ (Isaiah. 53:11; Romans 5:8-9; 2 Corinthians: 5:19).

Sanctification Is that act of God within the sinner in which God works with the new man in a life-long process of restoration (Phillipians 2:12-13; 3:12; Colossians 3:2-5; Titus 2:11-12).

(Incidentally, this link is not to an LDS website, so there's no reason for anybody to simply dismiss what I'm saying as being some crazy Mormon doctrine.)

My point in bringing up the two words is that it is a lot easier to reconcile the dilemma between whether salvation is by faith alone or by faith as demonstrated by works when you understand the concepts of justification and justification. Justification is by grace alone, while sanctification is by a combination of grace and works. So, we believe that we are justified regardless of our works, but sancified through a combination of grace and works.
Ok, thanks for sharing.
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Old 04-08-2011, 06:46 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,156,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
God gives us faith through his Son. In fact, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). Paul shows how faith comes when he says: "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:13,14).

It is necessary for the gospel of Christ to be preached so that sinners can believe and be saved. Where the gospel has not gone, people have not heard, and no one has been saved. This is the reason we must preach the gospel to every person, in every nation, in the whole world (Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 16:15,16; Luke 24:46, 47).
Is the Faith then earned or a gift?
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:49 AM
 
3,344 posts, read 5,639,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Is the Faith then earned or a gift?
Faith is ABSOLUTELY NOT EARNED, and I see what you are trying to do by asking this important question. But faith is not something we conjure up on our own, nor is it something we are born with, nor is faith a result of diligence in study or pursuit of the spiritual. Read Ephesians 2:8-9. Ephesians makes it clear that For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. As the verses teach, faith is a gift from God, not because we deserve it, have earned it, or are worthy to have it. It is not from ourselves; it is from God. So, can you explain to me what Paul means NOT BY WORKS SO THAT NO ONE CAN BOAST?

Faith is not obtained by our power or our free will. We don't even have the power to do it on our own as a result of our rebellious and sinful nature. It is simply given to us by God, along with His grace and mercy, according to His holy plan and purpose, and because of that, He gets all the glory. Your definition of faith and salvation is not allowing God to take full credit for saving us in the first place. There's absolutely nothing we can do to obtain salvation, and that's been my whole point. We can't take the place of what Jesus did for us, all we can do to Glorify God is just believe, and as a result of that live as humanly righteous as possible to continue to Glorify God.

Last edited by antredd; 04-08-2011 at 08:11 AM..
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Old 04-08-2011, 01:22 PM
Status: "02/11/21: I am fully vaccinated. Yay!!!!!" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: Salt Lake City
24,225 posts, read 24,687,147 times
Reputation: 11721
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
Ok, thanks for sharing.
Comments like this almost always mean, "You're wrong, but I don't want to be bothered explaining why." Was that the case this time?
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,156,313 times
Reputation: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
Faith is ABSOLUTELY NOT EARNED, and I see what you are trying to do by asking this important question. But faith is not something we conjure up on our own, nor is it something we are born with, nor is faith a result of diligence in study or pursuit of the spiritual. Read Ephesians 2:8-9. Ephesians makes it clear that For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. As the verses teach, faith is a gift from God, not because we deserve it, have earned it, or are worthy to have it. It is not from ourselves; it is from God. So, can you explain to me what Paul means NOT BY WORKS SO THAT NO ONE CAN BOAST?

Faith is not obtained by our power or our free will. We don't even have the power to do it on our own as a result of our rebellious and sinful nature. It is simply given to us by God, along with His grace and mercy, according to His holy plan and purpose, and because of that, He gets all the glory. Your definition of faith and salvation is not allowing God to take full credit for saving us in the first place. There's absolutely nothing we can do to obtain salvation, and that's been my whole point. We can't take the place of what Jesus did for us, all we can do to Glorify God is just believe, and as a result of that live as humanly righteous as possible to continue to Glorify God.
ok antredd, I think we both agree that Faith is a gift and not earned.So if one has Faith then the obtain the Spirit right?
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Old 04-08-2011, 10:14 PM
 
3,344 posts, read 5,639,085 times
Reputation: 1520
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Comments like this almost always mean, "You're wrong, but I don't want to be bothered explaining why." Was that the case this time?
I can't win for losing. When I say much, people say that I am being mean, and when I respond by saying thanks, cause I don't have anything to say against your post,you think that I am being mean too. I was happy that you took the time to respond to my thread. I didn't disagree with you at all. When I do, I WILL LET YOU KNOW. HOW'S THAT?
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Old 04-08-2011, 10:15 PM
 
3,344 posts, read 5,639,085 times
Reputation: 1520
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodToBeHome View Post
I don't believe the word "works" mean the same thing in those two bible passages. The first one is about Jewish works such as circumcision or eating practices while the James meaning of works is about helping your fellow man. So both are correct.
Wow. I never looked at works that way. YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE ME STUDY HOW WORKS IS USED IN BOTH CONTEXTS. THANKS FOR SHARING
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Old 04-08-2011, 11:10 PM
Status: "02/11/21: I am fully vaccinated. Yay!!!!!" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: Salt Lake City
24,225 posts, read 24,687,147 times
Reputation: 11721
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
I can't win for losing. When I say much, people say that I am being mean, and when I respond by saying thanks, cause I don't have anything to say against your post,you think that I am being mean too. I was happy that you took the time to respond to my thread. I didn't disagree with you at all. When I do, I WILL LET YOU KNOW. HOW'S THAT?
LOL! Don't get upset, antredd. I didn't say you were being mean. I just thought that my comment might prompt a little more discussion than a "thank you." It's seriously no biggie.
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